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#51
08-07-2007, 01:21 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Again, these are the entire contents of the bill. Which parts of it are incompatible with the free market? [/ QUOTE ] The part where by calling workers' pension funds "government assets" state and local governments can effectively force individual Americans to also divest their retirement investment from companies that bureaucrats decide they don't like, you know, like was said in the floor speech you quoted. [/ QUOTE ] No, sorry, that's not quite what the bill says. You're referring to sections 6 and 7, which say nothing more or less than "no asset manager or employee pension fund manager can be sued by an irate investor solely for the fact that he sold off all his Sudan Government Friendly Corporation, Inc. stock". Now, you're at least half right, in that the government is exercising its judgment to determine that an ongoing genocide is worth making the free market process of "divesting from morally evil entities" (the one that every libertarian says happens naturally) go a little faster. Whether that's worth interfering with that market to this limited extent is, as you say, left as an exercise to the reader. [ QUOTE ] Also, the bill reiterates in Section 2 (you know, the part you told us to skip), that the Congress urges an interventionist foreign policy and economic sanctions, which Dr. Paul, not being a complete moron, understands will only make things worse. [/ QUOTE ] Section 2 is the 'Congressional findings' section, which is a list of things the Congress has already passed. It has nothing to do with what is in HR180. 
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#52
08-07-2007, 01:30 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Again, these are the entire contents of the bill. Which parts of it are incompatible with the free market? [/ QUOTE ] The part where by calling workers' pension funds "government assets" state and local governments can effectively force individual Americans to also divest their retirement investment from companies that bureaucrats decide they don't like, you know, like was said in the floor speech you quoted. [/ QUOTE ] No, sorry, that's not quite what the bill says. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, it is. Spin doesn't change the words. [ QUOTE ] You're referring to sections 6 and 7, which say nothing more or less than "no asset manager or employee pension fund manager can be sued by an irate investor solely for the fact that he sold off all his Sudan Government Friendly Corporation, Inc. stock". Now, you're at least half right, [/ QUOTE ] I am entirely right, and you are half something. [ QUOTE ] in that the government is exercising its judgment [/ QUOTE ] lol [ QUOTE ] to determine that an ongoing genocide is worth making the free market process of "divesting from morally evil entities" (the one that every libertarian says happens naturally) go a little faster. [/ QUOTE ] Because it always turns out so SWELL when the government helps the market along! [ QUOTE ] Whether that's worth interfering with that market to this limited extent is, as you say, left as an exercise to the reader. [/ QUOTE ] Indeed. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Also, the bill reiterates in Section 2 (you know, the part you told us to skip), that the Congress urges an interventionist foreign policy and economic sanctions, which Dr. Paul, not being a complete moron, understands will only make things worse. [/ QUOTE ] Section 2 is the 'Congressional findings' section, which is a list of things the Congress has already passed. It has nothing to do with what is in HR180. [/ QUOTE ] Wrong. If Dr. Paul votes for the bill, then he votes to uphold the "findings", i.e. the advocation of an interventionist foreign policy and economic sanctions. You don't have a leg to stand on. Also, nice that you didn't tell us that the "genocide" resolution Dr. Paul abstained from was actually the resolution where Congress urged yet more international intervention and economic meddling. I consider this argument won.
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#53
08-07-2007, 01:35 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
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I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, but your posts about the Sudan are pure spin. Do you seriously not understand what Paul thinks the role of federal government is? His voting record is very consistent regarding bills like this. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, yes I do. I completely understand his principles make his vote thoroughly consistent. I also feel that those principles are morally repugnant at best and...let's not go there, at worst. [ QUOTE ] Are you trying to imply Ron Paul == Racist + 4 genocide because of this vote? You could make your case much better by talking about his views on immigration instead of harping about this stupid Sudan bill that is simply a smokescreen to get us to think that govt CARES about people dying and babies. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know about you, but believe it or not, I do actually care about whether some of the whole lot of money that I paid to the government last year is going to purchase Sudan's oil/contributing to the "let's buy the janjaweed some faster choppers" fund. But, really, I'm not even trying to make a "real" case (See, this word is in quotes. What do you think that means?) for Paul being racist - although I'm pretty sure he is. As you say, there's lots of things to get Paul on. What I do want to point out with this is that Paul subscribes to an ideology that basically says "I would rather vote to make sure an investor reserves the right to sue a pension manager for dropping a Sudan investment than to let that manager actually stop doing business with a genocidal client." Combine that with the libertarian-espoused idea that the free market corrects itself for morality, and you see where I'm going with this.
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#55
08-07-2007, 01:42 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I consider this argument won. [/ QUOTE ] Deleted [/ QUOTE ] Come on. I know you don't agree with me on much and certainly aren't a Paul supporter, but you can't possibly buy into the ridiculous arguments adanthar's been making.
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#56
08-07-2007, 01:48 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I consider this argument won. [/ QUOTE ] Deleted [/ QUOTE ] Come on. I know you don't agree with me on much and certainly aren't a Paul supporter, but you can't possibly buy into the ridiculous arguments adanthar's been making. [/ QUOTE ] I frankly haven't read much of the thread; I just thought declaring victory was a bit over the top. For one, some other ACist will surely do it for you, and two, it sounds kind of trite doing it yourself. Of course you think you won the argument. I probably should read the thread, though, since you and adanthar may be the two smartest posters on the forum.
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#57
08-07-2007, 01:48 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
Because it always turns out so SWELL when the government helps the market along! [/ QUOTE ] Clearly, the market is doing great at divesting from Sudan on its own, right? BTW, that's the cornerstone of libertarianism I'm talking about - the ability of rational consumers to make their own decisions to stop dealing with genociders. If that's not a "rational consumer leaves town" situation, I don't know what is. So, two years into the " "genocide" "...where's my Darfur-free oil? How come the market needs to be prodded along?
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#59
08-07-2007, 02:00 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Because it always turns out so SWELL when the government helps the market along! [/ QUOTE ] Clearly, the market is doing great at divesting from Sudan on its own, right? BTW, that's the cornerstone of libertarianism I'm talking about - the ability of rational consumers to make their own decisions to stop dealing with genociders. If that's not a "rational consumer leaves town" situation, I don't know what is. So, two years into the " "genocide" "...where's my Darfur-free oil? How come the market needs to be prodded along? [/ QUOTE ] So this what moving the goal posts looks like. Gee, let me think. The most heavily intervened in industry in the entire world is probably the oil industry (well, probably behind banking), with oil being produced by a globe-straddling government-enforced cartel, with most oil production being entirely nationalized by various governments, and where it isn't nationalized, as in the US, it is micromanaged by government regulations. Gosh. I wonder why the market might be hampered. Guess the answer is . . . more government! Same answer to everything, isn't it? Political situation on the other side of the world you don't like? More government! People you don't like making too much money? More government! People not buying what you want them to buy? More government! People buying too much of what you don't want them to buy? More government! Not enough death camps for your taste? More government! Is your toilet clogged? More government! I guess every problem looks the same when the only tool in the toolbox is a gun.
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#60
08-07-2007, 02:03 AM
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Re: Libertarians: Stop Using Logic
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I consider this argument won. [/ QUOTE ] Deleted [/ QUOTE ] Come on. I know you don't agree with me on much and certainly aren't a Paul supporter, but you can't possibly buy into the ridiculous arguments adanthar's been making. [/ QUOTE ] Im no ACist. But, this is Boro. And its Boro by a lot. EDIT: but slickpoppa is right... you lost that one
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