Leave Michael Vick Alone...

[CallMeIshmael]

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For those that support dog fighting, where do you personally draw the line, if you have one at all?

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Black people are property and people can do with their property what they wish.

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thumbs down

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why?

thats the exact opinion that was held in the US not all too long ago.

Beyond that, keep in mind that the post that I was FYPing wasnt a debate about whether we have a right to eat animals or make them fight. It was a question as to whether or not we have a right to take an animal and torture it to death simply for the fun of torturing something to death.

Is this a right you think comes with owning an animal? (I put this view as being about equal to slavery being OK on both the wrong and repugnant scales)

Try to reply with more than a one-liner, if possible.

[vhawk01]

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I fail to see how otherwise intelligent people do not understand the difference between torturing animals to death for the sole purpose of entertainment and the slaughter of animals for the purpose of providing food.

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Niss - the difference is one of the slightest degree and is often blurred if it exists at all, for instance hunters take pleasure in the kill, even though they also eat, and many hunters kill solely for the sake of killing. No one, except for extreme animal lovers, thinks trophy hunters should be jailed. So again, please give me a real reason why dog fighting should be illegal or even considered immoral.

Also, take for instance traps, a very very cruel way to kill an animal. Not all trappers eat their kills as well.

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Deriving pleasure from a pork chop or even tracking down a deer (which is challenging and requires skill), or even from wearing fur is much different and more acceptable than taking pleasure from watching animals just get hurt. The last is just cruelty.

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They derive pleasure from watching them FIGHT, then, if that makes you happier. Getting hurt is simply an unavoidable consequence of the desire to see them fight.


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[censored]. Do you think the torturing-to-death angle is just a coincidence?

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Nope. But thats because I know the real reason we stigmatize dog fighting and it has nothing to do with two dogs getting in a ring and fighting each other to the death. Its a lot of what Andy just said, and a little bit of what you are getting at with the 'coincidence' line.

[vhawk01]

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Just as an aside, for me the issue isn't about an "animals right to life" or whatever. I'm a free market loving anarchist but some things should just make you personally take a step and say to yourself, "Wow, that kind of behavior is [censored] up." Torturing dogs to death falls into that category for me.

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Exactly, and the reason is because you feel (probably very correctly) that people who train dogs to fight and people who go to watch dog fights are very very likely to be sociopaths. A lot of our social taboos and even some laws are based loosely around the fact that you can't just lock someone up for being a sociopath but MAN DO WE WANT TO. Sociopaths are terrifying. So, stuff like dog fighting scares and disgusts us on a visceral level, since it is a strong indicator of sociopathy, and we want those people out of our societies.

I just think the 'animal rights' argument against dog fighting is ridiculously stupid, and a last ditch band-aid type of approach to the realization that we HATE people who do this to dogs and we can't figure out why.

[vhawk01]

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When cows are routinely house trained, sit at their owners feet, play catch or fetch, assist their owners in hunting for other animals, protect their owners from attack, guard the owners property, etc. then they will probably become protected in our society as well.

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Exactly. Its sociopathic behavior to kill animals that everyone loves. Its normative behavior to kill animals that everyone could care less about.

Thats precisely the point. It has nothing to do with dogs being more sentient or suffering more than pigs. Its because they get the newspaper.

[vhawk01]

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On the one hand, yes, dogfights seem like a terrible thing, on the other hand, how much pleasure do we get out of watching 2 humans pummel eachother in a boxing/UFC/etc fight? whats the real difference if everything is regulated correctly? Boxers enjoy fighting, and are taught how to from a young age, whats the diff if we do it with a dog.

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Uhhhh...the boxers having a choice might be a small difference.

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Dogs can't choose if they want to wear a bee costume, they can't choose if they want to be imprisoned in my house for the long weekend while I go see family, if they want to be left outside in the rain because I don't want them muddying up my carpet, when they get to eat, when they get to play, when they get to do anything.

Many of these things probably cause the dog some degree of suffering.

[Monolith]

Deleted; as proof, I offer this:
-it wants to fight. SO WHAT? A serial killer wants to kill,should we let him?
-so, you are saying that theft is the only crime that should be punished? and, if it's cool with you, I'll use my own property to have sex with young children; it's my property, so I can, right?
-yes, some cultures do eat dog; some eat worms; some screw their children; some eat their children; some cultures have every member of their family live in the one-room hut, forever. SO WHAT? It's called civilization, and we live in it; they don't.
-whether it's dog fur, mink fur, fox fur, or seal fur, it's wrong; I don't protest it, but I don't wear it, either.
-yes, some pharmaceutical companies test on animals, and those are protested year-round, as they should be. It seems that you are arguing for the right to treat animals cruelly by citing examples of being cruel to animals. Are you retarded? Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question.
- yes, slaughterhouses are gross, and inhumane. However, I don't keep cows, pigs, chickens,lambs, or calves (those are cows again, genius) as pets; you can bet that, if I did keep them as pets, I wouldn't eat bacon or beef.
-why do you think that fish have no feelings? Show me your proof, now...don't say "me and bubby joe were fishin', and..."
-I do wear leather coats,and I love my jacket. Yes, a cow gave it up, but he was already dead, and on my plate, so it's not wasteful. When I die, you can use my skin for a jacket...
-yes, bull fighting is extremely cruel, and many people do protest it. Here's the difference(s): generally, bull fighting doesn't happen in this country, it happens in latin american countries; secondly, it's a little harder to hide a bull fighting ring than it is to have a barn with a dog fighting pit in it.
-Deleted; does this mean that you must have sex with any female in your presence? Come on, man; if you're going to try to play devil's advocate, at least try to come up with some decent arguments...

[valenzuela]

I dont have a strong position on this subject but I want to say two things.

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-it wants to fight. SO WHAT? A serial killer wants to kill,should we let him?

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No, but if there are two guys that want to fight each other to death then we should let them.
Morphball isnt advocating that dogs should be able to attack humans because they want to attack them.

I dont see why eating dogs makes you an uncivilized person, dogs are raised on a special way on Korea. Also Im sure someone on America is screwing his kid right now.

[MidGe]

It looks to me like the USA is really going to the dogs, given the number of posters that seem not offended by the very idea of organizing fighting dogs for pleasure!

Ah well, that's the USA!

[applejuicekid]

monolith, wow!

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-it wants to fight. SO WHAT? A serial killer wants to kill,should we let him?

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val covered this

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-so, you are saying that theft is the only crime that should be punished? and, if it's cool with you, I'll use my own property to have sex with young children; it's my property, so I can, right?

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What? Are young children your property? You can do what you want with your property, but I don't see how you can extend that logic to "you can use your property to do whatever you want to whoever you want."

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-yes, some cultures do eat dog; some eat worms; some screw their children; some eat their children; some cultures have every member of their family live in the one-room hut, forever. SO WHAT? It's called civilization, and we live in it; they don't.

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Are you saying, eating dog = uncivilized?

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It seems that you are arguing for the right to treat animals cruelly by citing examples of being cruel to animals.

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No, he is arguing that punishing Vick for being cruel to animals is inconsistent when there are other examples of cruelty to animals that are widely acceptable.

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- yes, slaughterhouses are gross, and inhumane. However, I don't keep cows, pigs, chickens,lambs, or calves (those are cows again, genius) as pets; you can bet that, if I did keep them as pets, I wouldn't eat bacon or beef.

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Who should decide which animals are edible and which ones are supposed to be kept as pets?

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-it's not hard to separate it at all: you have sex with women (you do, right?); does this mean that you must have sex with any female in your presence? Come on, man; if you're going to try to play devil's advocate, at least try to come up with some decent arguments...


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What? No one is saying you can't have sex with women. What are you talking about? However, I would say that a law that said only certain people can have sex with women while others can't would be a pretty stupid law. Also, a law that said you can have sex with some women, but not others would also be a very stupid law.

[vhawk01]

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It looks to me like the USA is really going to the dogs, given the number of posters that seem not offended by the very idea of organizing fighting dogs for pleasure!

Ah well, that's the USA!

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I would bet that most of the people 'defending' dog fighting (if you could call what we are doing defending) feel the same way as you do about it. Our gut reaction is disgust and abhorrence. But some of us feel that using our brains to rationally consider things is a better guide to truth than simply trusting our gut feelings.

Or would you prefer to just condescendingly poison the well some more?