Ethics Question

[Johnny Hughes]

I guess you are right.

[NickyC]

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A few times, I have bluffed the river in a big NL pot, been called after some thought and announced, "nuts." A couple times, players have actually thrown their hands face down toward the muck. Both times, I quickly stopped them, said I was kidding, and turned over my busted draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're out of your mind to even do this in the first place. In a lousy little $3/6 limit game ok, but when there is a "big NL pot" going on, I'd view this is an angle shoot and label you a jackhole no matter how much you tried to explain it away. What do you do when you say "Nuts", and the other guy says "Well, let's see it" without throwing his cards away. You look like a complete clown then saying "Oh, I was just kidding" while you either muck or turn your losing hand over. If I saw that crap, I'd be incredibly pissed off and you'd forever be known as a cheater in my book. Even if you had good intentions the whole time here (which I honestly believe you did), it's still VERY bad timing imho.

[Kalledrengen]

You say you both have been on the table the entire evening, so if it was me it would greatly depend on how that time had been.
Sounds strange, but if I had a great time with him specificly, I would feel like an ass if I kept the pot, so would probably be splitting it here. If however he had been annonymous or unpolite I would probably just keep it to myself

[Arito]

This is very easy for me. If I think he is a good/nice guy, I give him the whole pot. If I think he is a douche I keep it and if I don't know him I probably give it to him as well (small chance I chop instead). I don't understand why most poker players are so obsessed with taking any chance to gain some money that's obviously not theirs. You bluffed, got caught, lost and can only win money by some technicality. Just play properly bankrolled so the money at stake will not corrupt your soul.

Also, I'd be much more inclined to give the pot to a newbie than a regular/pro.

[Uppercut]

I hardly ever play poker in casinos, but why would anyone muck their hand on the river before determining that they had actually lost the pot? Especially if it is a large pot.

[prodonkey]

I've been so drunk I fell out of a chair before and I've never mucked a winning hand. I think if you are dumb enough to flash the winning hand and muck it, then you deserve to lose the pot. All you have to do is expose your hand, and the cards speak, not that difficult of a thing to do I wouldn't think, especially if you can't figure out if you river a boat on your own, etc.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A few times, I have bluffed the river in a big NL pot, been called after some thought and announced, "nuts." A couple times, players have actually thrown their hands face down toward the muck. Both times, I quickly stopped them, said I was kidding, and turned over my busted draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're out of your mind to even do this in the first place. In a lousy little $3/6 limit game ok, but when there is a "big NL pot" going on, I'd view this is an angle shoot and label you a jackhole no matter how much you tried to explain it away. What do you do when you say "Nuts", and the other guy says "Well, let's see it" without throwing his cards away. You look like a complete clown then saying "Oh, I was just kidding" while you either muck or turn your losing hand over. If I saw that crap, I'd be incredibly pissed off and you'd forever be known as a cheater in my book. Even if you had good intentions the whole time here (which I honestly believe you did), it's still VERY bad timing imho.

[/ QUOTE ]


Similarly, what's with these opponents who just say, "Okay" and then start to muck without even seeing the cards?
Just seems weird.

So when this is said it has to be with the expectation that the other guy is far more likely to just wait for the cards to be turned over and when this happens (or he doesn't table them and instead just mucks and says he was only kidding) then he still ends up looking like a total D-Bag.

Indeed, I would not be as likely to view anyone at my table who does this as being fun/funny/friendly. I would be far more likely to think they were some kind of an angle-shooting jerk.

[DesertCat]

[ QUOTE ]
most/many floors will actually push the pot to the guy who mucked as long as it can be confirmed that he actually flashed the ace (by the dealer or the overhead cameras depending on how strict the casino). i have seen multiple casinos do this. i think its the right thing to do despite not being technically correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a little scary. One important reason to require both cards to be tabled is to ensure the hand wasn't played with a fouled deck. Allowing a player to win with a single card potentially opens up an angle shoot where a player has been dealt a duplicate card, tried to win the pot through aggression, and when called, flashes a winning card to the camera then mucks to hide the deck being fouled.

[Do You See Why]

just to show there is no justice in poker:
about a week ago i was playing in oceans 11 2-2 nl game. it had been the same players at the table for a couple hours. very social group having fun. guy to my right is an annoying [censored], taking a minute preflop everytime "I got a monster! I got a monster! I got dead mans!" guy didnt shut his mouth for more then 30 seconds the entire game. he also was constantly slaping me on the shoulder after telling jokes.

anyway, this joker gets in a pot with the tightest quietest guy at the table. flop comes down 2-7-K QUIETGUY bets LOUDIDIOT makes a show of things and calls. Turn comes a 7.QUIETGUY checks LOUDIDIOT instapushes all his chips(about 170 into a pot of only 50) to the center and announces "all in". QUIETGUY says "i hate to do it but i gotta call. i have a full house." he then pushes his chips in and tables his 2-7. LOUDIDIOT jumps up and starts yelling "Nonono i was kidding. im not allin. it was a joke." im thinking "is this guy seriously gonna try and pull this [censored]?" floor gets called over and obv. rules the guy all in. LOUDIDIOT ispissed sticking to his guns and still argueing he is not all in. deal burns and turns over a K on the river.LOUDIDIOT says "OH I WIN!" flips over his K-10 for the bigger fullhouse.LOUDIDIOT starts talking about karma being on his side and stuff. Unfortunatly LOUDIDIOT racked up his chips about 3 hands later and left. maybe its because we all kept telling him what a cheater he is. if there is karma(there isnt) then [censored] got hit by a bus on the way home.

[threeonefour]

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[ QUOTE ]
most/many floors will actually push the pot to the guy who mucked as long as it can be confirmed that he actually flashed the ace (by the dealer or the overhead cameras depending on how strict the casino). i have seen multiple casinos do this. i think its the right thing to do despite not being technically correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a little scary. One important reason to require both cards to be tabled is to ensure the hand wasn't played with a fouled deck. Allowing a player to win with a single card potentially opens up an angle shoot where a player has been dealt a duplicate card, tried to win the pot through aggression, and when called, flashes a winning card to the camera then mucks to hide the deck being fouled.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think a lot of the cases (maybe even all) when the cards were mucked face down, they weren't actually mixed up with the muck itself, though they may have been touching the muck. thus the dealer/cameras can dig out the cards and flip them over.

there are definitely are a lot of casinos that are pretty cavalier about the rules regarding the muck. you know casinos that have that 'bet-line' where if cards cross face down its a muck, and for a bet to be legal chips must cross the line, those line rules are almost never consistently enforced, regardless of the casino. angle shooter's paradise