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#51
07-18-2007, 04:50 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[quote
Making the hands nonrandom only makes your equity worse. So does including the possibility that the blinds 3bet or fold. There's no way a PFR is ZOMG HUGE VALUE. [/ QUOTE ] the only way you can make a claim that a PFR here has zero value (it has small +EV) is if you now take all these hands and have them all blindly go to the river. this is a positional raise moreso than an equity raise, although it does have a small amt of purely mathematical positive expectation. 
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#52
07-18-2007, 04:52 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
the only way you can make a claim that a PFR here has zero value (it has small +EV) is if you now take all these hands and have them all blindly go to the river. [/ QUOTE ] If we're taking postflop into account then this is no different from raising any other near-zero EV hand (which is basically never as automatic as your earlier posts implied).
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#53
07-18-2007, 04:53 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] the only way you can make a claim that a PFR here has zero value (it has small +EV) is if you now take all these hands and have them all blindly go to the river. [/ QUOTE ] If we're taking postflop into account then this is no different from raising any other near-zero EV hand (which is basically never as automatic as your earlier posts implied). [/ QUOTE ] examples of hands you have in mind? what do you refer to as zero-EV here? would you raise AJo here? KQo? why or why not?
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#54
07-18-2007, 05:18 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
the only way you can make a claim that a PFR here has zero value (it has small +EV) is if you now take all these hands and have them all blindly go to the river. [/ QUOTE ] What's your definition of a 'value bet/raise'? That is one of the main ways you measure the value of a raise when one does say it is for 'value'. Which is one of the things being debated here. It doesn't matter what the next streets bring. Goes directly to 'pot equity'/expectation of the hand at that point. b
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#55
07-18-2007, 05:32 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] the only way you can make a claim that a PFR here has zero value (it has small +EV) is if you now take all these hands and have them all blindly go to the river. [/ QUOTE ] If we're taking postflop into account then this is no different from raising any other near-zero EV hand (which is basically never as automatic as your earlier posts implied). [/ QUOTE ] examples of hands you have in mind? what do you refer to as zero-EV here? would you raise AJo here? KQo? why or why not? [/ QUOTE ] Well, here's your range: [ QUOTE ] AJo, ATo, KJo - mediocre hands with only high card value. suited king-rag. other than that, i'm raising. [/ QUOTE ] How about mid to small suited gappers or mid - small o/s connectors? (like T9o or 78o) b
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#56
07-18-2007, 05:51 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
How about mid to small suited gappers or mid - small o/s connectors? (like T9o or 78o) b [/ QUOTE ] folded preflop.
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#57
07-18-2007, 05:56 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How about mid to small suited gappers or mid - small o/s connectors? (like T9o or 78o) b [/ QUOTE ] folded preflop. [/ QUOTE ] Getting a possible 7 or 8-1, you'd fold those with position? wow....ok Good thing you know how to use position. b
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#58
07-18-2007, 05:59 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How about mid to small suited gappers or mid - small o/s connectors? (like T9o or 78o) b [/ QUOTE ] folded preflop. [/ QUOTE ] Getting a possible 7 or 8-1, you'd fold those with position? wow....ok Good thing you know how to use position. b [/ QUOTE ] these are regular limps for you? man i thought i was loose pf.... what about the cutoff?
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#59
07-18-2007, 09:40 PM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
Making the hands nonrandom only makes your equity worse. So does including the possibility that the blinds 3bet or fold. There's no way a PFR is ZOMG HUGE VALUE. [/ QUOTE ] So best case you get +12c EV on every dollar invested. In practice, you get a lot less (probably more like 4c), but value is value. The biggest problem with raising is that it ties us to the pot. If we flop a pair, we're calling down because the odds are now justified. TOP says to avoid doing stuff like that. What I can't figure out is what the larger consideration is. I'm generally agreeable to the camp that says raise it, though, because being aggressive has small metagame value even in no-fold-em games. For example, people are WAY more likely to check to you in LP games and give you free cards to go with your mediocre draws. But it's hardly dogma to raise.
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#60
07-19-2007, 02:13 AM
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Re: live 67s Button
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] How about mid to small suited gappers or mid - small o/s connectors? (like T9o or 78o) b [/ QUOTE ] folded preflop. [/ QUOTE ] Getting a possible 7 or 8-1, you'd fold those with position? wow....ok Good thing you know how to use position. b [/ QUOTE ] these are regular limps for you? man i thought i was loose pf.... what about the cutoff? [/ QUOTE ] Telling me you wouldn't limp with 53s on the button with 5 limpers ahead of you and no likely raise coming from the blinds? I'm actually on the tight side preflop. I'm usually the tightest guy on the table. I'm tighter than most on this forum. The place to loosen up is on the button. The button and position doesn't mean just a good spot to raise. It also means you can sneak in with alot of marginal hands for 1 bet. The CO I'd raise a bit more so I can buy the button. But I also play it a bit tighter. The better comparison might be what you'd call a raise with in the BB with 7 people coming in and no likely 3 bet. b
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