Ban programs (PT, PAHUD, AHK, ...)

[BlackRain]

HUD's should obviously be banned. This is simply an image issue. In a perfect world, where people don't talk about them on the tables, its not a problem.

But this is not the case. When fish (especially older PC illiterate ones) hear that their opponent is running a program which generates detailed statistical information on their play and displays it right on the table in front of them, this is very bad PR for the online game.

Game quality has taken enough of a pounding in the past year. Why keep driving your best customers away? Its as simple as spending 15 minutes copy and pasting stats from PT into player notes, if not having your HUD concerns you so much. Big picture FTW.

[sethypooh21]

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Game quality has taken enough of a pounding in the past year. Why keep driving your best customers away?

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Reasons game quality has detoriated:

1. UIGEA
2. End of the fad
3. UIGEA
...
1001. UIGEA
...
2,589,413. PAHUD

[Nairb]

Sethypoo your response is the reason I almost did not chime in with my 2 cents worth. I do not need you to validate my opinion and that is exactly what it is, opinion.

I am not whining about this. I have played for a long time pre-uigea and will play well after without regard to Hud and such. I am constantly working harder to improve, thank you for pointing it out.

If you cannot see the difference in reading a book and using an electronic tracking tool of everyones moves over the last 5000 hands then I cannot help that.

My problem is not PT and that type of software. My problem is the data-ining and HUD. Once again, not whining, only stating my opinion.

It amazes me that the same posters that whine and cry about bots in other threads defend to the death a system by which you make moves based on your little dashboard of statistics of how an opponent played in the past based on a specific set of criteria

Soft players have left largely because of UIGEA but also because of the overall perception that online poker is rigged. I do not share this perception but the use of datamining and HUD helps to perpetuate this myth.

I hope my paragraphs are to your liking and maybe I will see you at the tables someday.

[Nairb]

[ QUOTE ]
HUD's should obviously be banned. This is simply an image issue. In a perfect world, where people don't talk about them on the tables, its not a problem.

But this is not the case. When fish (especially older PC illiterate ones) hear that their opponent is running a program which generates detailed statistical information on their play and displays it right on the table in front of them, this is very bad PR for the online game.

Game quality has taken enough of a pounding in the past year. Why keep driving your best customers away? Its as simple as spending 15 minutes copy and pasting stats from PT into player notes, if not having your HUD concerns you so much. Big picture FTW.

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I could not possibly agree more!

[sethypooh21]

Sorry if I was harsh Nairb. These kind of threads get me cranky. Use of these tools is one of those things that makes OL poker different then live poker, and it seems like a lot of people in the "Ban'em" camp want everything to be just the same. And that's simply not going to happen.

Also, I think it's pretty arbitrary to say that PT + player notes are legit, but PAHUD is not. And LOL if you think PAHUD provides anything beyond a very broad read on a player. If you are a player on whom PAHUD provides more than that broad read, it is because you are playing predictably and exploitably, and I lack sympathy.

I also don't really understand the concern about "the secret getting out." The people who it would "bother" are more or less the same group who both think "ZOMG stars=rigged" yet keep playing on stars.

Now, if you want to ban datamining, I'm all for that, and I'm glad PS doesn't show all holecards at showdown for observed hands, but PT/PAHUD are simply a streamlined way for me to access information I have paid for in rake in the hands I have already played.

[Archon_Wing]

I think you people should stop learning about the game. That's unfair it means I can't win more. Ban 2p2 plz. It contains information you wouldn't have been able to get yourself.

And stop multitabling. You can't do that live!

Fact is, live and the internets are diffrent things.

Edit: Is it ok if I hire a sweatshop to take notes and stats for me?
Edit #2: This is just my opinion, which makes everything I said ok.
Edit #3: Well your opinions are bad, because you are all unethical bastards trying to steal money from people. I'm just trying to play for fun. (Taking people's money is fun, but I have good reasons. No really!)
Edit #4: If anyone makes a serious reply to this, I will snip one random sentence out of context and go on some rant. Because it's all tl;dr anyways.

The last three points are also how you win in the politics forum. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Nairb]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you people should stop learning about the game. That's unfair it means I can't win more. Ban 2p2 plz. It contains information you wouldn't have been able to get yourself.

And stop multitabling. You can't do that live!

Fact is, live and the internets are diffrent things.

Edit: Is it ok if I hire a sweatshop to take notes and stats for me?
Edit #2: This is just my opinion, which makes everything I said ok.
Edit #3: Well your opinions are bad, because you are all unethical bastards trying to steal money from people. I'm just trying to play for fun. (Taking people's money is fun, but I have good reasons. No really!)
Edit #4: If anyone makes a serious reply to this, I will snip one random sentence out of context and go on some rant. Because it's all tl;dr anyways.

The last three points are also how you win in the politics forum. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Typical response. I guess I do not have enough posts here to be allowed an opinion on this subject. I have played for years but when I saw this post and agreed with most of what OP said I chimed in. Are you a proponent of bots being allowed? Where does it end? Some things that are available are fine but some are borderline no different than a program running a situational script that calls, raises, or folds for you. If you cannot see that fine line then maybe you have already crossed it.

I do not understand the animosity with which you defend these aids. Are you afraid you cannot win without them?

EDIT: No Offense lol

[vgs]

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Everyone has equal access to get PT, AHK, and HUDs ... these are not bots. they do not make decisions for players.

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Well, not entirely true - people who use them are assisted in making more effective decisions. And, on the flipside, neither do bots actually make decisions - they merely execute pre-programmed digital commands.

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But how to enforce it?

[blackize]

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Are you a proponent of bots being allowed? Where does it end?

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Drawing comparisons between bots and HUD users is just silly. They're completely different.

A HUD provides a general read of a player. Whether he is tight or loose, whether he is passive or aggressive, whether he calls too much or folds too much, simple things of that nature. Nothing tells you when to call, raise, bet, or fold on a HUD. It can only give you a vague idea of how someone is playing and it is up to the user to determine how to respond to various situations.

A bot analyzes board texture, past hands, and its holding to play according to set rules. It never tilts, it never tires.

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Some things that are available are fine but some are borderline no different than a program running a situational script that calls, raises, or folds for you. If you cannot see that fine line then maybe you have already crossed it.


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There is no fine line here. HUDs don't suggest how to play, they don't tell you how to play, they don't automate play. Bots are completely automated. HUGE difference.

[Archon_Wing]

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If you cannot see that fine line then maybe you have already crossed it.

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Your arbitrary line does not matter; only the poker room's line matters.

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Are you afraid you cannot win without them?


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No