NYU Dave v. NYU Dave 100/200 NL: Two hands.

[riverboatking]

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can you explain your logic on this one? i'm v. curious. also, do you play the hand differently on earlier streets? thank you...

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well i def either 3 bet or fold preflop with folding being by far the best option.

i don't much mind the line you took on flop and turn, although i prolly bet a little bigger on turn but i think thats moot.

i just think he's way more likely to move on you on the turn if he decided on flop he wants to float light and make a play, rather then float twice and then underbet bluff the river.

he knows your flop CR can be a pretty wide range so i think he can def peel light with the plan of moving on you later, just in my experience that later usually means the turn rather then the river.

and while i mentioned in my other post that good players aren't going to slowplay monsters this deep i think this scenario is much diff then the first hand as a really good amount of the time you are totally FOS in this spot and so there is no reason for him to take you out of the lead and blow you off the hand.

if i turn Q's full or flopped the boat i'm gonna let you hopefully fire one more barrel as the times you have nothing and decide to 3 barrel + the times you show up with some crappy overpair to the board and make a check/hero call on the river way outnumber the times you show up with a 6.

[cero_z]

Hi Dave,

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Turn is a 3. I now have trips. He leads weak (400). I raise to 1500. Again, I'm really not sure how much merit there is in raising here, but I decided to do so for value, obviously. He calls after not much thought[with Js Full].

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This is his best move of the hand. It definitely looks like trips, some other big hand like an overpair/top two, or a draw, i.e. anything but the lock that he actually has.

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(his standard M.O. is to use double reverse psychology--which I didn't mention before)

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This is the sort of information that could've been brought to my attention YESTERDAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! Seriously, you can't put in all that info about your physical read, and leave this out.

[fslexcduck]

RBK, you say that the flop check in hand 1 widens Dave's river check-raising range and that I didn't take that into account... I'm curious as to what you think about this.

I obviously realize how it impacts the hand (and I guess left it out of my post, but mentioned to Dave on IM, well of course his bluffing frequency is significantly wider given your flop check behind). But I think it impacts it only in that it widens the frequency with which he is bluffing.

I STILL think that his value raising range (to 15k this is, note that in live poker this is a seemingly huge river c/r, even though it's under pot) is what I said it is. Also because in my live poker experience, semibluffs happen way more often on the flop - when people wake up on the turn, they're much more likely to show up with hands. Just my experience, I'd be curious on your thoughts on that as well.

But yeah I really don't think he check-raises worse hands for value - esp. when the straights get there - are you implying that he does?

[riverboatking]

i think most of your post was spot on duck, as they usually are.
i just think that the flop check, plus the fact that its 3 handed and the villians image means he would def. CR for value with a hand like AA/KK and for sure a worse 3.

like i said i think his range is def. tilted more towards a bluff or a 3, or obv a nutter butter hand, however i just pointed out the AA/KK because that HAS to be included in his range and even more so due to the flop check but no one even mentioned it.

i just thought the key point of the hand is that villian knows that hero doesn't have a boat, and prolly doesn't have a straight so its a great spot to CR bluff, and while i agree with you that its much more rare to see that play in a live game, given that its 3 handed, deep, and given the description of the villian i think this is def. a call on river.

[dlpnyc21]

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dude you make a lot of posts and then after you get feedback say things like "well actually this is really all he could have because of this and that" and all kinds of specific reads that no one but you could know.
and thats fine, reads are a big part of the game, however if you want to foster good discussion about how to think about the game and analzye a hand from start to finish that kind of stuff is useless and i think thats why some people seem annoyed by your posts/tone.

i personally dont know you but i think you post interesting hands, and people i respect have a good opinion of you so i think you're probably a pretty decent guy.

but you may come off better if you dont make posts and then after people take time to respond you come back with all this talk about how this was actually extremely obv that he had this exact hand and only this hand based on all this stuff i knew about him as it makes it kind of like well then whats the point of posting the hand?

i made my post after i saw the results (obv) so my only point was to demonstrate that there is good logic and reasoning for making a river call based on the way the entire hand played out, and to say that he can only have a boat or a straight in this spot i think is very unrealistic ESPECALLY given your description of the villian.

a big part of learning how to play poker is understanding not only how your opponents actions affect the hand ranges but also how your actions affect hand ranges, and the fact that you check behind on the flop is a HUGE FACTOR in this hand and something that players trying to improve their game should pay attention to and understand how its going to change the rest of the hand.

you C bet at least 70% of the time you say, so checking behind in this spot immediately changes the whole aspect of the hand and its something neither you nor anyone bothered to mention.

edit: and i mention more then three hands...i include worse 3's/bluffs/and AA-QQ i was just highlighting AA/QQ since no one else had included those hands in his possible range.

and ps: i'm not trying to hate on you at all in this post, like i said i think you are probably a very decent guy, and i def. like your posts...just trying to help you come across better in certain spots so you get good/positive feedback.

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i appreciate the response. i just get a bit annoyed when people say i'm results oriented and then when i post hands i win which i was v. curious about people don't say anything to that effect. i've tried to balance my posts with winners and losers (some of course didn't go to showdown). as a rule, i only post difficult hands (at least they difficult for me). whether or not i won/lost the hand is irrelevant to me...i only get mad at myself if i think i made a poor decision.

the problem with the "logic of the hands" i post is generally they are multi-faceted and it's not until AFTER i read people's responses (and think about them) that i can work it out. and in the end, most decisions are pretty clear ones (for example, most people feel the 86o hand is a clear river fold), but some are of course closer than others.

i'm still learning and consider myself and beginning-intermediate player/poster, and i really appreciate the response of all everyone, it is for me one of the best ways to learn (articulate my thoughts then get feedback). i'll try to be less "results-oriented" but honestly, if i had won these hands i would still have posted them because they confused the heck out of me...i don't know if that makes me results oriented or not.

either way, thanks for the good response, it's very much appreciated.

dlpnyc21

[dlpnyc21]

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Hi Dave,

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Turn is a 3. I now have trips. He leads weak (400). I raise to 1500. Again, I'm really not sure how much merit there is in raising here, but I decided to do so for value, obviously. He calls after not much thought[with Js Full].

[/ QUOTE ]

This is his best move of the hand. It definitely looks like trips, some other big hand like an overpair/top two, or a draw, i.e. anything but the lock that he actually has.

[ QUOTE ]
(his standard M.O. is to use double reverse psychology--which I didn't mention before)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the sort of information that could've been brought to my attention YESTERDAAAAAAAAAAAAAY! Seriously, you can't put in all that info about your physical read, and leave this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're absolutely right...i should have put that in. however, he can use single and tripe reverse (if that makes any sense). the two most "psychological" players i've ever played against are nyu dave and persian steve (in the sense of their reverse and double reverse tells and table talk). it can get a bit confusing at times, but honestly, it's got to be critical that he literally got up from the table and started making faces at me through the glass!!

[riverboatking]

i think the biggest thing to realize is that in most cases when something is that close it doesn't really matter what you do.
the important thing is that you have solid logic and reasoning behind your decision making process.

so if you use x y and z factors to make your decision then all you need to look at is whether your x y and z variables were sound and there wasn't some flaw in your decision making process.

that is the key, so when looking back over hands try to focus on the key factors that led you to do whatever and see if after the heat of battle has passed the factors still lead you to make the same decision again.

and i def. think that in the 1st hand you should always call that river vs the player you describe.

i will also say that in general i think your decision making and reasoning is very solid in all the hands you post, but the thing you need to remember is that no matter how good of a player you are you are going to lose pots.
you are going to get into situations where there is just nothing you could have done, and if you didn't lose the money in the pot you were playing scared and thats never a good way to play.

(not necessarily commenting on these hands but def. for example like CTS said with KK vs AA 100bb deep, [censored] happens)

[PHiLLeDINGUE]

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dude you make a lot of posts and then after you get feedback say things like "well actually this is really all he could have because of this and that" and all kinds of specific reads that no one but you could know.
and thats fine, reads are a big part of the game, however if you want to foster good discussion about how to think about the game and analzye a hand from start to finish that kind of stuff is useless and i think thats why some people seem annoyed by your posts/tone.

i personally dont know you but i think you post interesting hands, and people i respect have a good opinion of you so i think you're probably a pretty decent guy.

but you may come off better if you dont make posts and then after people take time to respond you come back with all this talk about how this was actually extremely obv that he had this exact hand and only this hand based on all this stuff i knew about him as it makes it kind of like well then whats the point of posting the hand?

i made my post after i saw the results (obv) so my only point was to demonstrate that there is good logic and reasoning for making a river call based on the way the entire hand played out, and to say that he can only have a boat or a straight in this spot i think is very unrealistic ESPECALLY given your description of the villian.

a big part of learning how to play poker is understanding not only how your opponents actions affect the hand ranges but also how your actions affect hand ranges, and the fact that you check behind on the flop is a HUGE FACTOR in this hand and something that players trying to improve their game should pay attention to and understand how its going to change the rest of the hand.

you C bet at least 70% of the time you say, so checking behind in this spot immediately changes the whole aspect of the hand and its something neither you nor anyone bothered to mention.

edit: and i mention more then three hands...i include worse 3's/bluffs/and AA-QQ i was just highlighting AA/QQ since no one else had included those hands in his possible range.

and ps: i'm not trying to hate on you at all in this post, like i said i think you are probably a very decent guy, and i def. like your posts...just trying to help you come across better in certain spots so you get good/positive feedback.

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WOW that's gold right there thanks.

[whitelime]

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[ QUOTE ]
dude you make a lot of posts and then after you get feedback say things like "well actually this is really all he could have because of this and that" and all kinds of specific reads that no one but you could know.
and thats fine, reads are a big part of the game, however if you want to foster good discussion about how to think about the game and analzye a hand from start to finish that kind of stuff is useless and i think thats why some people seem annoyed by your posts/tone.

i personally dont know you but i think you post interesting hands, and people i respect have a good opinion of you so i think you're probably a pretty decent guy.

but you may come off better if you dont make posts and then after people take time to respond you come back with all this talk about how this was actually extremely obv that he had this exact hand and only this hand based on all this stuff i knew about him as it makes it kind of like well then whats the point of posting the hand?

i made my post after i saw the results (obv) so my only point was to demonstrate that there is good logic and reasoning for making a river call based on the way the entire hand played out, and to say that he can only have a boat or a straight in this spot i think is very unrealistic ESPECALLY given your description of the villian.

a big part of learning how to play poker is understanding not only how your opponents actions affect the hand ranges but also how your actions affect hand ranges, and the fact that you check behind on the flop is a HUGE FACTOR in this hand and something that players trying to improve their game should pay attention to and understand how its going to change the rest of the hand.

you C bet at least 70% of the time you say, so checking behind in this spot immediately changes the whole aspect of the hand and its something neither you nor anyone bothered to mention.

edit: and i mention more then three hands...i include worse 3's/bluffs/and AA-QQ i was just highlighting AA/QQ since no one else had included those hands in his possible range.

and ps: i'm not trying to hate on you at all in this post, like i said i think you are probably a very decent guy, and i def. like your posts...just trying to help you come across better in certain spots so you get good/positive feedback.

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WOW that's gold right there thanks.

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I'll 2nd this and David you know I tell you this like every day...

[Omniheart]

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dude you make a lot of posts and then after you get feedback say things like "well actually this is really all he could have because of this and that" and all kinds of specific reads that no one but you could know.
and thats fine, reads are a big part of the game, however if you want to foster good discussion about how to think about the game and analzye a hand from start to finish that kind of stuff is useless and i think thats why some people seem annoyed by your posts/tone.

i personally dont know you but i think you post interesting hands, and people i respect have a good opinion of you so i think you're probably a pretty decent guy.

but you may come off better if you dont make posts and then after people take time to respond you come back with all this talk about how this was actually extremely obv that he had this exact hand and only this hand based on all this stuff i knew about him as it makes it kind of like well then whats the point of posting the hand?

i made my post after i saw the results (obv) so my only point was to demonstrate that there is good logic and reasoning for making a river call based on the way the entire hand played out, and to say that he can only have a boat or a straight in this spot i think is very unrealistic ESPECALLY given your description of the villian.

a big part of learning how to play poker is understanding not only how your opponents actions affect the hand ranges but also how your actions affect hand ranges, and the fact that you check behind on the flop is a HUGE FACTOR in this hand and something that players trying to improve their game should pay attention to and understand how its going to change the rest of the hand.

you C bet at least 70% of the time you say, so checking behind in this spot immediately changes the whole aspect of the hand and its something neither you nor anyone bothered to mention.

edit: and i mention more then three hands...i include worse 3's/bluffs/and AA-QQ i was just highlighting AA/QQ since no one else had included those hands in his possible range.

and ps: i'm not trying to hate on you at all in this post, like i said i think you are probably a very decent guy, and i def. like your posts...just trying to help you come across better in certain spots so you get good/positive feedback.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW that's gold right there thanks.

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I'll 2nd this and David you know I tell you this like every day...

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lol..come on everyone has a lil bit of result orientation is in them. David is not really that result oriented. He just like to question his himself and his abilities. People usually post hands because they are questioning themselves and people tend to question themselves when they are wrong more than they are right. And people are usually wrong when they lose the pot. I wonder what the percentage of the posts that are posted on here that are winners.