Is It The Dog Breed Or The Owner?

[katyseagull]

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Unfortunately, we decided to put her down after she attacked another dog, and we feared she may do harm to a dog's owner should it happen again. In addition, the town demanded that after the attack the dog be kept on a five foot leash and muzzled whenever outside.



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This is so sad John Cole. I can't imagine having to put down a perfectly healthy dog that is a member of my family. Sounds so depressing. This must have been a horrible decision for you and your wife.

I'm curious, how extensive were the Golden's injuries? (I'm also curious how Mat's dog survived being attacked by a pitbull!)

I know a girl who owned a mutt, part lab I think. Beautiful dog. Anyway, it bit not one but two different people in her neighborhood. One woman sued her and her lawyer recommended she put the dog down. It really tore her up because the dog was affectionate at home and just a sweetheart.

btw, are Boston Terriers aggressive like the other terrier breeds? I mean do they have that same tenacious quality? I've heard a lot of positive things about Bostons. (I was reading up on terriers and coyotes and found that Airedales can be quite aggressive, which surprised me as I had always thought Airedales were docile. I know nothing about dogs!)

[wdcbooks]

I come from a family with a pretty good background to answer this question. My wife is a professional dog trainer and my sister is a vet who also trains dogs as a hobby.

We own a male Rottweiler named Cub who is just terrific, but I am not going to come in and tell you that he would be the right dog for the great majority of pet owners. Dogs are bred to have certain basic characteristics that are typical of their breed. You can then train and teach them to bring out the best of those naturally occuring traits, or you can screw them up. This brings up a few issues though. First is that a good breeder will breed dogs who show the correct attributes for the breed, both physically and temprementally. That won't be true for some guy you know who lives down the street.

Pit Bulls were bred to fight other dogs. Their territorial and aggressive instincts were selectively bred to be very strong. They do not generally do well with other strange dogs and are one of the breeds most likely to attack a strange dog if they are not correctly trained and socialized. Especially if abused they can turn off their natural affection for humans and become aggressive and unpredictable. If they are treated well and well trained they are no more likely to attack another person than any other breed of dog.

We chose to own Rotties for a number of reasons. Cub is a highly intelligent, confident, driven dog. With his training regimen he has become just wonderful, sweet and affectionate, but ready to work when the time comes. It is pretty easy to see though how his high level of confidence and 90 pound heavily muscled frame could become a problem. Cub is also what is known as a 'hard' dog. Which means he does not respond to corrections unless they are pretty emphatic, which means that we are left training him with shaping and other positive methods.

In short, I wouldn't worry because a friend is getting a pit bull. I think it is unlikely that the Pit is the right breed for him, but if he takes the time to train and socialize the animal he should be ok. Our previous two Rotties were Certified Therapy Dogs who were trained to visit kids and old folks in nursing homes and hospitals, so there is no breed specific barrier to what your dog can accomplish.

I do wish that people who villified certain breeds would take the time to think about some of the evidence as to why this is silly. Quite simply the breed of choice for thugs has changed over time. In the 1950-60s it was the German Shepherd that was considered the vicious guard dog of choice. Later it was the Doberman (remember Fletch?), then it became the Rottweiler. Now it is moving towards some of the primitive breeds like the Dogo Argentino and Cana Corso. I don't think anyone would move towards banning Dobermans or German Shepherds, but the only reason they aren't feared is that they have gone out of favor among thugs. If thugs decided to breed Labs for aggressiveness and size we could have problems ten years from now where there are none today.

[John Cole]

Katy,

Out dog managed to rip part of the Golden's throat, but they got them apart in time. We hated having to put her down, but we knew the dog wouldn't thrive if it couldn't play, and we just didn't want to risk anyone getting hurt.

And, no, Bostons are not aggressive at all. They are extremely friendly and goodnatured with people and other dogs. They are like pits in that they rip things apart in the same fashion; i.e., they both clamp onto something and rip it apart by shaking their heads back and forth. And they both like to sleep in their owner's bed burrowed under the covers. Both are also much stronger than they appear.

[Blarg]

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In short, I wouldn't worry because a friend is getting a pit bull. I think it is unlikely that the Pit is the right breed for him, but if he takes the time to train and socialize the animal he should be ok.

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But he is not getting just any pit bull, and there is no particular reason to suppose he has either the expertise or the time and level of commitment necessary even to train a 100% stable dog, much less a potential problem dog.

[Blarg]

The shaking of the head side to side when clamped down is just what dogs do, from my understanding.

[Mrs. Utah]

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The shaking of the head side to side when clamped down is just what dogs do, from my understanding.

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I think you are correct Blarg.
Our dog does this with his favorite toys, which are stuffed animals. He shakes them violently from side to side.
When its a toy its cute, but if it were a real animal it would be horrifying to see. Its innate though, he is killing his prey.

Sometimes the yard looks like a stuffed animal graveyard. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[zac7179]

Katy

I have four dogs. One of them is a pit bull. I got the Sheba about 5 yrs ago at the time I was very, very cautious about getting one. I did alot of research on them and learned alot. I got her and she has been the best dog I have ever had. I recently got married and she had two dogs. At first Sheba was very guarde with her food and with me. IF the other dogs came around me when she was there she was very protective. We have been working that out of her and them for almost a yr now and things are going good. Tell your friend pits are alot of work. With the right amount of work to me there isn't a better dog out there. But under the wrong owner there isn't a worst kind of dog out there. Becuase like other posters have said when a pit attacks they are going to do damage. They were bred to kill small game. So when they go into that mode they are going for the kill. But in a one dog house they are get pets.

[Mat Sklansky]

My dog does this grab and shake move too, which I now find ironic as it is precisely what the pit did or started to do to her. She even squeaked like one of her toys.

To answer Katy's question about survival: it was mostly due to the fact that my dog opened her own mouth in time, preventing the other dog from getting her by the throat. He had her lower jaw and the back of her neck in his jaws. I instinctively jumped on top of the dog, stuck my hands in his mouth trying to pull it open, grabbed a rock and started hitting his head, and luckily five construction workers were nearby and came running over and started kicking the pitbull until he let go.

I estimate that he was kicked in the ribs fifty times before relenting.

Even after all that, he never lashed out at any of the humans. And recall I even had my hands in his mouth. To make it even crazier he actually tried to go after her again after we separated them.

I do have to say that while this experience led me to have zero trust in terms of pitbulls being aggressive to other animals, it did show evidence that these dogs don't seem to have any natural viciousness towards humans.

If I only wanted one dog and I lived somewhere with a lot of land I would absolutely feel comfortable with a pitbull.

And in case anyone is wondering, the dog appeared to be a stray. He had no tags, and while I took my dog to the vet, the construction workers called animal control. I never heard what happened after that. I have to assume that he was put to sleep.

[katyseagull]

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I do have to say that while this experience led me to have zero trust in terms of pitbulls being aggressive to other animals, it did show evidence that these dogs don't seem to have any natural viciousness towards humans.

If I only wanted one dog and I lived somewhere with a lot of land I would absolutely feel comfortable with a pitbull.



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I'm really glad your dog survived but that certainly does sound like a terrifying experience.

I've been doing some reading up on pitbulls since starting this thread. Based on what I've read on various sites as well as what the posters in this thread have said, I've changed my opinion of the breed somewhat. I now see that they can be some of the sweetest and most loyal dogs out there, and that many people consider them wonderful family pets.

However, probably the one thing that stood out to me most was the site Mat linked - "pitbulllovers.com" where it states quite clearly that these animals can really not be trusted to be left alone around other animals and never off a leash. This is a little troubling to me. But anyway, thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts and experiences with me. I really appreciate the feedback. You guys are great.