The Dids theory of human [censored]-upery.

[7ontheline]

Al, I think I understood your point before, and saw that you were trying to articulate the religious point of view and not necessarily state your own beliefs. I'm responding more to Razor's posts in this thread and his repeated statements that everyone is taking an equal leap of faith regardless of what their belief system is. I simply do not believe that all belief systems are equivalent for the reasons I stated above. Again, this isn't meant to denigrate those with faith - different does not mean worse, although I personally am an atheist and do not (can not?) understand fully the religious point of view because of what I see as some inherent contradictions.

[Aloysius]

7:

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However, the scientific process should result in reproducible, predictable results that confirm the theories in question to anyone approaching an experiment in a similar way. However, the "spiritually-based" reality is pretty unlikely to produce predictable results to convince an objective observer.

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Well... yeah, hence the conundrum and the seeming "unreality" of faith-based reality. I was just trying to communicate a serious Christian person's perspective.

I imagine that empiricists are truly baffled by those who believe in a metaphysical state.

Actually - as an aside, for my more intelligent Christian friends - not one of them is 100% certain in their faith. (In the Bible, the Apostle Paul is testament to near 100% faith in God. Anyone in today's world claiming to be near that is prolly not even close to that, I mean this is based on the fact they believe Paul existed.) There are major moments of doubt and spiritual crisis. I mean, they're smart people - they get it - and see the opposing view because it's so... blatant.

-Al

[Paluka]

There is a fundamental flaw of most religions that once you believe in the religion, it becomes a very bad thing to not believe. Consequently your own beliefs scare you into acting like your doubts do not exist. So many people with doubts try to ignore them. This makes rational self-analysis of the belief itself impossible. This is the exact opposite of science, which actively encourages its believers to try to test its "facts".

[olliejen]

I'm not sure the scope of "our society" in this, but I'll just say "the world."

My $0.02, the biggest flaw in the world is peoples' inability to find practical coexistence with other people who do not share the same beliefs.

I also don't think that the flaw you've illustrated is a "bad" one in all cases. If you overheard a conversation where someone was comforting a parent who lost a child, telling them that their child is still loved by God, no longer suffering and in a better place, would you be shaking your head at "the flaw?" That parent is probably desperate and needing to believe in something that maybe he/she has no rationale basis for. But it doesn't seem terrible to me at all...it just seems human.

[Aloysius]

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There is a fundamental flaw of most religions that once you believe in the religion, it becomes a very bad thing to not believe. Consequently your own beliefs scare you into acting like your doubts do not exist. So many people with doubts try to ignore them. This makes rational self-analysis of the belief itself impossible. This is the exact opposite of science, which actively encourages its believers to try to test its "facts".

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Very well put - one can see how more science-minded religious people sometimes struggle mightily with their beliefs.

And the reason I'd imagine they don't dismiss it out of hand is because something in them still believes and has faith, for whatever reason (you may say it's fear, they may say it's because they're closer to a fuller truth and reality).

-Al

[Razor]

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To me, a believe based on faith implies that something beyond logic and rationality and facts were used to make this choice. Isn't this what most people mean when they say it is a faith based belief?

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But is it possible for logic, rationality and facts to exist outside of and be uninfluenced by faith? Does this not itself require a leap of faith?

[Paluka]

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To me, a believe based on faith implies that something beyond logic and rationality and facts were used to make this choice. Isn't this what most people mean when they say it is a faith based belief?

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But is it possible for logic, rationality and facts to exist outside of and be uninfluenced by faith? Does this not itself require a leap of faith?

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I'm not sure what you are asking, but I'm going to answer no.

[7ontheline]

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But is it possible for logic, rationality and facts to exist outside of and be uninfluenced by faith? Does this not itself require a leap of faith?

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You keep saying this and I just don't understand your point. I believe that what I see and hear and feel are real. I believe in what I have seen and learned regarding science and human knowledge. If this belief is what you call a leap of faith, then I don't see how any argument means anything. I understand that I have a limited perception and understanding of the world, but if you subscribe to the notion that all perception of reality is questionable, then you can make a case for basically anything. Sure, I see the mathematical logic of gravity, and I see things fall down towards the center of the Earth's mass, but maybe it's all not real? Maybe what I can see and prove with equations and experiments is merely an illusion, and only my faith in my own perception is what convinces me of its truth? If that's the case, then who cares what anybody believes? You can't prove anything. Please explain your argument, because it doesn't mean anything to me right now.

[maryfield48]

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You know, it's not that simple. Being an atheist is not an act of faith.

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You know, it actually is that simple.

One can no more disprove the existence of God as prove His existance.

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See, being an atheist means I don't have to disprove a god-damned thing.

[Razor]

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See, being an atheist means I don't have to disprove a god-damned thing.

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Being an atheist means you don't believe in the existence of God. If you can't prove God doesn't existence but believe he doesn't anyway you've made a leap of faith.