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#51
01-31-2007, 06:31 PM
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Re: Circularity of belief systems
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You will not be able to demonstrate that this axiom is true [/ QUOTE ] True is not the issue. Usefulness or practicality is what’s important. [ QUOTE ] The best way to form true beliefs is to only adopt those which can be rationally defended with reference to all the available evidence. The bible is the word of God [/ QUOTE ] Which ‘axiom’ is more useful when determining the solution of some random practical problem? Would dropping the second one improve or reduce your chances. True truth is beyond us, but we still have to keep on doing things. [/ QUOTE ] I dont accept that truth is beyond us. I have a fairly mundane take on reality - I think there is a real world and statements we make/believe/debate are true if they happen to correspond with that world and false if they dont. Of course, I am never going to be 100% sure as to which are right and which are wrong - but I try to use a rational approach and believe on that basis (the more evidence, the more certainty) With regard to practicality vs truth - personally, I would prefer a true but less useful axiom to a false but useful one. 
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#52
01-31-2007, 06:42 PM
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Re: Circularity of belief systems
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It isn't trivial that you choose human reason over Scripture. It's that kind of choice that produced the all the suffering in history. [/ QUOTE ] Still trying to figure out what he's saying here.
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#53
01-31-2007, 06:53 PM
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Re: Circularity of belief systems
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[ QUOTE ] It isn't trivial that you choose human reason over Scripture. It's that kind of choice that produced the all the suffering in history. [/ QUOTE ] Still trying to figure out what he's saying here. [/ QUOTE ] I expect it's that trying to make our own way and relying solely on human wisdom and ingenuity (or even just giving them pre-eminence) is never going to work. We need God in order to achieve salvation, without him there is no choice but suffering.
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#54
01-31-2007, 07:03 PM
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Re: Circularity of belief systems
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It isn't trivial that you choose human reason over Scripture. It's that kind of choice that produced the all the suffering in history. [/ QUOTE ] Still trying to figure out what he's saying here. [/ QUOTE ] I expect it's that trying to make our own way and relying solely on human wisdom and ingenuity (or even just giving them pre-eminence) is never going to work. We need God in order to achieve salvation, without him there is no choice but suffering. [/ QUOTE ] If so... a little explanation is in order. I don't know how to say this: there is no reason that 'reason' would lead to suffering. On the other hand, he certainly must be aware that religion has certainly been a driving force in much of human suffering. So for him to just drop a whammy like that unsupported is only going to make people's jaws drop. (it lacks credibility) Its the kind of statement that only makes sense to one of Faith who just accepts that its true because of what they already believe.
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#55
01-31-2007, 07:31 PM
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Re: Circularity of belief systems
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I don't know how to say this: there is no reason that 'reason' would lead to suffering. [/ QUOTE ] I don't say that. My point is that making human reason the ultimate judge of right and wrong, truth and falsehood, is what led to all human suffering. Eve rejected the word of God preferring to believe the serpent's statement that she wouldn't die and that she would become like God. This rebellion and choice of man's reason over God's word is the source of all evil since. To plug my recommendation for the book club, Milton begins PL with OF Mans First Disobedience, and the Fruit Of that Forbidden Tree, whose mortal tast Brought Death into the World, and all our woe,
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#56
01-31-2007, 07:41 PM
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Re: Circularity of belief systems
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Do you mean that you never thought I was a Christian? I could understand that (I was in two minds myself over whether I was a real christian anyway). [/ QUOTE ] I never could decide whether you truly believed or not - as I've stated to DS interminably I can't decide that about anyone. But I didn't think you were a Christian theist in the traditional sense because you have a low view of Scripture and depart from what I consider settled doctrine on some issues - again, not making a judgment about your standing before God but your doctrinal stance. [ QUOTE ] Accepting scripture as true doesnt present itself to me as obvious. [/ QUOTE ] It isn't obvious to anyone generally. We are fallen and there are noetic effects of sin which clould our vision. The Bible says we "ought" to see the truth and acknowledge God, but we don't because we are blind. The sun isn't obvious to one born blind. To the Christian the Bible becomes "obviously" the word of God because his eyes have been opened. [ QUOTE ] Furthermore, on the face of it, the Bible seems "the same" as other holy books purporting to teach something about the divine. [/ QUOTE ] I think it's very easy to show vast, profound differences between the Bible and other religious writings. Just the wealth of historical detail and accuracy sets it apart.
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#58
01-31-2007, 08:47 PM
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Re: Circularity of belief systems
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I didn't think you were a Christian theist in the traditional sense because you have a low view of Scripture and depart from what I consider settled doctrine on some issues - again, not making a judgment about your standing before God but your doctrinal stance. [/ QUOTE ] Understood, although I would quibble with "low", I certainly gave it less weight than personal revelation and rationality. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Accepting scripture as true doesnt present itself to me as obvious. [/ QUOTE ] It isn't obvious to anyone generally. We are fallen and there are noetic effects of sin which clould our vision. The Bible says we "ought" to see the truth and acknowledge God, but we don't because we are blind. The sun isn't obvious to one born blind. To the Christian the Bible becomes "obviously" the word of God because his eyes have been opened. [/ QUOTE ] The point I am making here is that this is what led me to label the bible axiom "arbitrary". Good axioms are obviously true (although I accept that it may be necessary to add a non-obvious axiom from time to time). [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Furthermore, on the face of it, the Bible seems "the same" as other holy books purporting to teach something about the divine. [/ QUOTE ] I think it's very easy to show vast, profound differences between the Bible and other religious writings. Just the wealth of historical detail and accuracy sets it apart. [/ QUOTE ] I also find the bible best on reflection - my claim was that they make the same, or similar, statements as to divine authorship and being "the one true way". Thus, they seem the same "at first glance" (on the face of it).
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#59
02-01-2007, 12:28 AM
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Re: Circularity of belief systems
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I don't say that. My point is that making human reason the ultimate judge of right and wrong, truth and falsehood, is what led to all human suffering. Eve rejected the word of God preferring to believe the serpent's statement that she wouldn't die and that she would become like God. .... [/ QUOTE ] I'm sorry. I thought you meant literally. I didn't realize your proof was the story of Adam and Eve. You realize that, as far as I can tell, most non fundamentalists believe that this story is a metaphorical fable and, in reality, reason has not led to most of human suffering. I'm pretty sure if you and I took a trip through history and looked at the largest sufferings cause by man... religion is linked behind it.
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