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#51
08-27-2006, 08:54 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i agree [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I'm still not raising the flop though [/ QUOTE ] fine. the main argument wrt this hand is that putting no raise in postflop is absolutely not the correct way to play a hand with such a massive edge. [/ QUOTE ] The argument was definitely about whether to raise the flop in the beginning. [/ QUOTE ] ILP made the statement that the flop raise was bad. he suggested never raising postflop. hilarity ensued and True made this thread as an argument against ILP's suggestion of calling down. this thread is not about deciding to raise the flop or turn. this thread is about raising anywhere instead of calling every street and betting when checked to. [/ QUOTE ] To be clear I said If I was going to raise any street, It would be the river. In this situation I would either call down or call down and raise the river. I do believe however that calling down will make/save the hero more money in the long run than raising the flop. 
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#53
08-27-2006, 08:58 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
[ QUOTE ]
cmon dude, we have a huge thread debating this, you can't just say 'solve the puzzle'. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Becuz I have to go shower and get all pretty to hang out with thehip41 and beat his ass in NCAA 2007, I will have to leave it at that for now.
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#54
08-27-2006, 09:01 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
[ QUOTE ]
repeat after me ILP, "i know that calling down here is incorrect because it misses bets. however, it allows me the peace of mind that comes from never losing more than the minimum against a 9. so although i know that i am making the mathematically incorrect play, i will continue to do so for psychological reasons." [/ QUOTE ] I dont make plays for psychological reasons, every play I make is designed to make the most money possible over the long run.
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#55
08-27-2006, 09:03 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ILP, You usually post some good advice, but the pedantic tone to your posts really needs to go. Really you're good, but not that good. Most of us here have egos and like to think we are always right even when we know there are smart people out there that likely have intelligent things that could help us if were willing to listen. As far as this hand goes the crux of disagreement has to do with the assumptions being made about villain's hand range and how he responds to various actions. Miles, True, Matt111, and I have all played a ton of hands and spent many of hours thinking about poker and this has contributed to our thinking on this hand. To blankly dismiss advice of very intelligent and experienced poker players is just plain stupid. It's fine that you disagree, but at least take a more mature and open minded approach to it. [/ QUOTE ] Hobbs, I agree with you that my tone has been a bit more abrasive than usual today. Frankly this is simply becuz I am tired of having to explain this concept over and over again. I told my friend thehip41 48 hours ago, that im tired of talking about bad flop raises and that I was gonna retire from from discussing this topic, and here I am again, two days later, talking about a bad flop raise. [/ QUOTE ] It's interesting that we agree completely on this hand and disagreed completely on the other big discussion about this topic earlier this week. The difference: position.
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#56
08-27-2006, 09:27 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
Leader,
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i just re-addressed this point in this thread. if you choose to call the flop and turn (i'm obviously arguing against doing this) and he still bets the river, if either the turn were a 8/T/J/K/A, you should not raise. what are you saying? [/ QUOTE ] I'm saying he doesn't think on that level. [ QUOTE ] i read through that thread and did not see any real reasoning for why you would want to wait to raise the river against a passive opponent when he is likely to stop betting all worse hands by the time you get there. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah I don't agree with that though [ QUOTE ] call, call, raise is worse than call, call, call which is worse than either raising the flop or calling the flop and raising the turn. whether to raise the flop or turn, i'm not positive, but either of these lines is better than waiting until the river or not raising at all. [/ QUOTE ] Based on your assumptions, which I don't agree with, the above is true. [/ QUOTE ] you commonly give your opponents zero credit. in order to say that waiting until the river to raise this hand is correct, you have to make HUGE, TERRIBLE assumptions about his play. you have to assume that this guy is donking air an amazingly high % of the time and that he will 3 barrel you a large portion of that time. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] ILP ILP ILP, sorry to be blunt, but you are flat-out wrong about this hand. i guarantee you that you are wrong. maybe you should figure out why you are wrong with respect to this hand. instead of continually replying with mathematically incredible statements such as "2.5 bb is more than (2.5 + x) bb," maybe you should look more closely at this hand to figure out why playing passively is wrong here. hopefully this isn't mean, because i like you ILP. i just want you to figure out why you're wrong. [/ QUOTE ] I'll say it to you once again miles. The villain can have 5x here the majority of the time and calling down will still make the hero more money in the long turn than raising the flop. I implore you or anyone else to figure out how this can be so. Ive taking you this far, the rest is up to you. Figure out why my counterintuitive statement is true, and you will have solved the puzzle. [/ QUOTE ] ILOVEPUZZLES929, this is getting ridiculous. YOU. ARE. WRONG.
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#57
08-27-2006, 09:32 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
btw, i'm done with this thread now guys. you can argue all you want. you're wrong. i believe i've made my point and if you're unconvinced, so be it.
others aren't chiming in because this is all fairly obvious to them. they all know that calling down is not the best, they just don't get annoyed like me when other people can't grasp the obvious.
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#58
08-27-2006, 09:40 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
miles vs ILP cliff notes:
miles: I'm right, you're wrong ILP: I'm obviously right, but don't have time to tell you why miles: no you're wrong obviously ILP: of course not, I'm never wrong. Therefore, you're wrong miles: wrong!
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#59
08-27-2006, 09:43 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
[ QUOTE ]
you commonly give your opponents zero credit. [/ QUOTE ] lol that isn't true at all. Wasn't there a hand like 2 days ago where lots of people thought I was giving a TAg too much credit for playing well. [ QUOTE ] you have to assume that this guy is donking air an amazingly high % of the time [/ QUOTE ] I think the optimal strategy when he has a pp or a 5 is to wait for the river as well. Even bad players are capable of folding to "the wall."
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#60
08-27-2006, 09:48 PM
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Re: Overpair on Paired board - RANT
[ QUOTE ]
btw, i'm done with this thread now guys. you can argue all you want. you're wrong. i believe i've made my point and if you're unconvinced, so be it. others aren't chiming in because this is all fairly obvious to them. they all know that calling down is not the best, they just don't get annoyed like me when other people can't grasp the obvious. [/ QUOTE ] When several good players disagree on something, it's pretty unlikely anyone is obviously wrong. I don't know why you're pissed at me, BTW.
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