Hand vs. Negreanu on Day 1C

[TheNewf]

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This looks like a pretty easy fold preflop. The way it was played, I'd fold on the flop. I doubt Daniel is dumb enough to try to bluff a new player to his table on Day 1 with a small raise, in the hope you'll put him on trips. For all he knows you're the biggest calling station in the history of the universe.

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Tmac is correct I think. Negreanu has this crazy image and he knows that. So people like betgo assume he's making some sophisticated bluff when really he just has a hand, and he gets paid off.

[jason75]

Given Negreanu's table image and the board, I think I'm calling and C/Rsing the turn all in.

We could call and open push the turn . . . . . . but I'd really like to get another bet out of DN here.

Given the size of the pot and my remaining stack, I'm willing to go broke with TP here. I don't care if that's Stu Ungar. If a guy is really playing 85% of the pots, then he's making moves most of the time . . . . I don't see how we can give up TP here because we're terrified he has a 5 (why did we call PF then?). If he really has the 5, then it's just our unlucky friggin day.

But to me, your call sets up this play perfectly for DN. Heck, I'd raise you both with nothing here if it went weak old man c-bets, new guy just calls . . . .

But of course, all this could have been avoided by folding/raising PF.

Flat-calling this raise PF is asking to get squeezed by the very skilled opponent in the BB. If not, then it's asking to be outplayed post-flop by the very-skilled opponent in the BB. As it turned out, sounds like one of these happened.

As played, I think it's an unfortunate fold.

[zatacka]

fold preflop

[locutus2002]

I think you have to check-raise to 6K ATF.
The pot is too swollen and your stack is too short (relative to the pot), for you to play weak OOP, you called with the Q to hit it, and it is going to be very difficult to sell a 5 with your PF image. So sell a Q you won't be moved off of.

From DN's point of view you are either holding 2 spades, a Q or a 5 (less likely). His range is pretty much the same (add some air).

He/you have:
~50 flush draws
~100 5s
~100 Qs

You are behind, but getting an overlay, which is where you were PF.

I hate the call PF with ~50XBB OOP. When you call with a weak Q, into what is likely a swollen pot (cause DN is not folding here), you need to be prepared to go down with the hand. If you must play the hand you are better off raising PF.

[illegit]

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From DN's point of view you are either holding 2 spades, a Q or a 5 (less likely). His range is pretty much the same (add some air).


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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].. but if he has a Q he almost certain to have us outkicked, and if he has spades then we're probably not much of a favorite. Honestly his range is crushing us.

Easy fold. Fold PF too.

[locutus2002]

1/2 the Q's have undercards, his range is wide.

[Spee]

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I already did!

To make a long story short, I folded, Button claimed AK, DN claimed K5.

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I assume to you also made some mental notes:

Note to self #1. Button is a d*mba*s for trying a weak*ss semi-bluff and not giving both of us a free card against a tough player.

Note to self #2. Be sure to take advantage of d*mba*s at every opportunity.

Note to self #3. Demonstrate to the bully that you won't be pushed around. A bit risky because it may involve putting your whole stack at risk and not getting max yield on some good hands, but it will eventually back the guy off, at least with you.

Note to self #4. In order to play this many hands, DN has to be randomizing some of his decisions. He isn't just doing this willy-nilly. In order to counter randomized decision, Hero must resort to similar tactics.

[illegit]

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1/2 the Q's have undercards, his range is wide.

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Um, no it's not. He's not trying to check-raise bluff these donks from OOP, just get in pots with them, try to make hands and let them give them their chips (and perhaps bully them when in position). He has a 5 here like 60% of the time, a better Q 20% and a big FD 19% and air like 1%.

[Dot_the_Bot]

Sorry- just stumbled ontot his very old post.

disclaimer*** I am hypothesizing on a possible line DN could take here.***

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Personally, my read on the situation was that Negreanu isn't doing this with any 2. Considering the action before him, he needs SOMETHING to make this raise.

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No, he doesn't. I like these plays for tournaments. I call it, "using the overcaller"

You limp PF, then c/overcalled on the flop. DN is using your overcall to build FE against the initial bettor, and fold him out. Because you didn't raise PF, he can pretty safely veto AQ from your range, as well as QQ, and Q5...

Likewise, bluffing here increases FE vs. you as well, because he was willing to do so in a multiway pot, with the original bettor still to act behind him. When the original bettor folds, it will be relatively easy to determine whether to go forward with the bluff when you do call- by gauging your reaction to having to commit 1/4 of your stack with Q's up.

BTW- Id like to add that if he flopped the best hand, he will generally cbet, rather than c/r the flop...IMO.

I use this play ALOT. It looks so much like a trap to both players, and frankly, players are rarely savvy enough to see when a player can bluff a multi-way pot.

I think DN is bluffing here- and I push.