Coaching WARNING

[dardo]

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I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

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This sounds really nonsense. How can you loose a bankroll? (ie. you move down limits). I don't think is that complex.

dardo.

[Surf]

I'm astounded by all the "buyer beware" and "you backed out tough luck" posts... I'm pretty sure if the coach was the no-name poster and the student was a well-known poster things would be pretty much 100% opposite.

FWIW, in Snowbank's shoes I'd refund your $ in a heartbeat... You hired him for specific services, and you found them wanting. His "I gave up students for you and that cost me money" argument is complete BS, as you initially purchased 5hrs of coaching, not 500, and it's been spread out over weeks - he could have fit dozens of students in during that time.

I'm pretty disappointed by Snowbanks complete lack of morals / good business practices, and by the general response of the posters. I will agree, though, that $450 is pretty cheap to learn such a tough lesson.

Surf

[FishSticks]

Grunch -

Just because he has little legal recourse doesn't make it right. You seem like a stand-up guy and I'm sure that's not how you define your morality - by the likelyhood of a judgement in a court of law. Obviously any attorney fees would far outweight the funds to be recouped anyways, so it's not even an option.

If you buy weed on the corner and end up with pencil shavings, that's your 1 out of 10 on your scale. It would be nice to think poker coaching is not along these same lines. A private coach/tutor in other fields would nice behave like this (like the golfer mentioned) - it sure reflects poorly on the poker community to know this is how we operate.

Matrix -

I shouldn't make assumptions about you, that's fair enough. I manage a service business and deal with pre and postpaid contracts routinely, so I'm not really in the dark on this and I do have strong ethical feelings on these type of matters.

PSJ is naive, foolish, and a bit of a crybaby. And yes, there's nothing anyone can do about it (except damage snowbank's rep and future business a la this thread) - but that money is long gone. However, that doesn't mean it's okay to screw the guy, and IMO opinion that's what's happening here. I do not believe a full refund is in order, but some compromise certainly is. I'm going to lay off on this thread now, as I've said what I wanted to say and I'm just getting redundant.

[J. Stew]

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I had the roll for 200nl and was beating it at 1.7ptbb/100. I took snowbanks coaching and in 3 weeks lost everything. So I was expecting to improve and move up. He advertised a 10ptbb/100 winrate!

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Over how many hands? What was your roll in $?

You are implying that your losses were snowbank's fault. If you're making this kind of implication, you had better be prepared to back it up with documented facts.

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pokersanjuan, this is exactly what I told you in your other thread.

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I am NOT implying my losses are HIS fault. I think I should recieve a refund for unused coaching hours. The first I ever heard of no refund was THIS CONVERSATION.

I simply told him I am not playing poker anymore and will not be using his services. Not that they were that great to begin with.

He was never available, and except for our first 30 min together the sessions constituted NOTHING.

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I think there're two issues here.

1. You can't feel like you are entitled to a refund unless that was explicitly stated or discussed prior to the deal. From your conversation and posts thereafter, you seem to feel entitled to your money back but don't offer any justification other than, I begged him and his service was [censored]. If the terms of the agreement were loose then you can't do much but gripe, unfortunately.

2. From snowbank's side, this is terrible business to which he seems not to give a [censored]. The fact that he probably makes decent enough money playing poker to be able to coach doesn't have anything to do with his obligation to refund your money, but it does have to do with the fact that he's being a dick about giving you your money back when you realized you weren't really learning anything from him. It seems like he cares more about the money he's making from coaching rather than being a good coach which is def. slimey. Sure you can argue that you got into the agreement and could've known more about what you were getting etc. but you can also argue that he should be decent human being and give you your money back after you decided you weren't happy with his service. It seems like he doesn't care whether you're pleased with his coaching and just wants the money to which I would say fk him. There's a lot of shtty people around and maybe he's one of them unfortunately.

[tufat23]

i can confirm that snowbank almost definitely did turn people down.

he put me on hold for 2 weeks and probably only took me on so fast because i'm a reg poster here and he kinda knew me anyway

[Keyser.]

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i can confirm that snowbank almost definitely did turn people down.

he put me on hold for 2 weeks and probably only took me on so fast because i'm a reg poster here and he kinda knew me anyway

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If this is true then it's important, but I find it hard to believe since the OP apparently received only 2 sessions during a 3 week period.

[Taylor Caby]

here is my take:
snowbank doesnt HAVE to give a refund. they made a deal and it isn't his fault the other person doesn't want to stick to the deal (the deal might have also been cheaper due to the "bulk" hours purchased, i'm not sure).

however, snowbanks SHOULD give a refund. first, would you want to buy lessons from someone who you KNOW will not give you a refund if you aren't happy? I sure wouldn't, and i would advise anyone who asked me what they thought about private lessons (believe me, a lot of people ask me) that they should avoid snowbank.

also, snowbank is keeping the money, i'm assuming saying "no, ill just give you the lesson instead." how effective do you think any future lesson will be after the guy basically forced you to take it when you didnt want it? can you trust a guy like that to give you the best lesson?

i would have a lot of questions for snowbank if i was thinking about getting lessons from him. the main one would be "why is your reputation worth being damaged over a few hundred dollars when you are supposedly winning 10 ptbb/100 playing msnl cash games?"

tc

[Surf]

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i can confirm that snowbank almost definitely did turn people down.

he put me on hold for 2 weeks and probably only took me on so fast because i'm a reg poster here and he kinda knew me anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who coaches should know how to manage their time / schedule sessions.

Setting up a session isn't exactly like negotiating a contract for a house - a quick phone call or IM and you can be up in running in minutes. If he had to turn down students it was during the hours he was actually coaching PSJ, so he didn't lose any money in that instance. If he turned down other students "just in case psj wanted coaching" that's his own fault for mis-managing his time.

Surf

[wrschultz]

Christ, I hate writing this... I'm usually an incredibly easy going guy, but this one just has me really steaming.

I too hired snowbank for coaching a month ago. He also told me that he had other students but that he would squeeze them out for me.

Chat log:
snowbank1515 (10:16:25 PM): did u still wanna try and start tomorrow or the necxt day
I AmBuddySchultz (10:16:40 PM): yeah asap
snowbank1515 (10:16:43 PM): k
snowbank1515 (10:16:47 PM): how many sessions did u want
I AmBuddySchultz (10:16:55 PM): i bet you've said tomorrow or the next day about 5 times to me now lol.
snowbank1515 (10:17:01 PM): lol for real?
I AmBuddySchultz (10:17:10 PM): eh 5 is stretching it
snowbank1515 (10:17:13 PM): sorry if i have been crazy busy
snowbank1515 (10:17:22 PM): trying to rent out a house, etc
I AmBuddySchultz (10:17:22 PM): yeah i hear ya, whenever you have time
snowbank1515 (10:17:31 PM): aight how many sessions did u want
I AmBuddySchultz (10:17:41 PM): i was looking to start with 2 i think, and then go from there
snowbank1515 (10:17:57 PM): hmmm aight...
snowbank1515 (10:18:15 PM): cause sessions under 4 i usually charge like $200/hr (dunno if we went over pricing, etc...)
snowbank1515 (10:19:03 PM): but dunno if we worked out a price or not previously
snowbank1515 (10:19:09 PM): i probly have it written down if we did

Keep in mind, he is telling me that I have to get at least 4 hours worth or he'll charge me more. I should have just said, screw you and left, but I was so trustworthy for some reason.

That night I transfered him $600 on Stars (4 hours at $150/hour)


On February 8th, two days after I sent him the money, he sat down and did a 1 hour session with me just by talking on aim. I think he underestimated my playing ability so there were some questions that weren't really important, but this is standard of course. In general I think the first session was a good start and I was excited. At the end of the session he said we'd do another one in a few days.

He sent me a couple IMs until the 10th, and then I didn't talk to him until the 20th when we had this conversation:

I AmBuddySchultz (1:29:22 PM): so i'd like to do another session whenever you have time
snowbank1515 (1:30:41 PM): ok cool
snowbank1515 (1:30:58 PM): either tonight or tomorrow night should work probably tomorrow night

He says tonight or tomorrow, (a common snowbank phrase really,) something which I've heard about 5 times already to this point, that I didn't even bother to paste. After this, I don't talk to him again until the 3rd when we have this conversation:

I AmBuddySchultz (3:12:11 AM): hey
snowbank1515 (3:15:37 AM): hey just got home from vegas ccrashin soon soo tired ill hit u up tomorrow
I AmBuddySchultz (3:16:13 AM): ok

Then on the 4th:
I AmBuddySchultz (5:15:45 AM): im definitely ready for another session now
snowbank1515 (5:17:56 AM): nice
snowbank1515 (5:17:59 AM): aight cool
snowbank1515 (5:18:06 AM): what time zone r u on again?
I AmBuddySchultz (5:18:11 AM): central
snowbank1515 (5:18:16 AM): k
I AmBuddySchultz (5:18:16 AM): how was vegas btw
snowbank1515 (5:18:26 AM): probably tomorrow then,. if not monday is cool with me

Then on the 5th:
I AmBuddySchultz (4:33:53 PM): have you been playing at all today?
snowbank1515 (4:34:00 PM): not today no
I AmBuddySchultz (4:34:21 PM): will you be abel to do an hour with me today?
snowbank1515 (4:34:50 PM): probly
snowbank1515 (4:34:59 PM): goin to play bball in a bit probly can later tonight
I AmBuddySchultz (4:35:03 PM): ok

Then the 6th:
I AmBuddySchultz (2:51:38 PM): can we go ahead and do an hour sometime today haha
snowbank1515 (2:54:10 PM): ya
snowbank1515 (2:54:13 PM): probably tonight
I AmBuddySchultz (2:54:17 PM): ok
snowbank1515 (2:54:21 PM): what time u up until
I AmBuddySchultz (2:54:31 PM): not late lately.
I AmBuddySchultz (2:54:36 PM): only 9 or 10 pm
snowbank1515 (2:56:30 PM): wow early
I AmBuddySchultz (2:56:38 PM): yeahhh
snowbank1515 (2:56:40 PM): aight u gonna be on most of the day
I AmBuddySchultz (2:56:48 PM): yeah
snowbank1515 (2:56:52 PM): k ill hit u up

And then FINALLY last night after almost a month since the first session, and constant hounding by me and "tonight or tomorrow" by snowbank, I get to sit down and have another session... I didn't learn much last night, and I'm not going to lie. This one was a "sweat" session because thats what I wanted, but he was CLEARLY preoccupied, and not even paying attention to my tables AT ALL for the first 30 minutes. EX:

I AmBuddySchultz (11:57:22 PM): 33 1
I AmBuddySchultz (11:57:38 PM): QK 2
I AmBuddySchultz (11:58:19 PM): thoughts there?
I AmBuddySchultz (11:58:24 PM): the QK hand
snowbank1515 (11:58:27 PM): with the 33 fold????
I AmBuddySchultz (11:58:43 PM): i called pre
I AmBuddySchultz (11:58:46 PM): didnt flop a set
snowbank1515 (11:58:49 PM): ahhh....
snowbank1515 (11:58:51 PM): i know whats goin on
I AmBuddySchultz (11:58:56 PM): T7 1
I AmBuddySchultz (11:58:59 PM): he raised
snowbank1515 (11:58:59 PM): tell me while u have the hand
I AmBuddySchultz (11:59:00 PM): i called
snowbank1515 (11:59:02 PM): not at the end
snowbank1515 (11:59:06 PM): a lot tougher to follow
snowbank1515 (11:59:11 PM): like as soon as u get it tell me
I AmBuddySchultz (11:59:14 PM): i am telling you as soon as i get it
I AmBuddySchultz (11:59:19 PM): T7 on 1
I AmBuddySchultz (11:59:22 PM): he raised pre
I AmBuddySchultz (11:59:23 PM): i called
I AmBuddySchultz (11:59:25 PM): flopped gutshot
I AmBuddySchultz (11:59:27 PM): so i raised
snowbank1515 (11:59:33 PM): ok hmm my comp was stalling earlir dont think it is

I guess my biggest gripe is that I can hardly ever get ahold of him, and he doesn't ever want to entertain any questions at all except when we're "on the clock.." I seriously don't pester people with dumb hands either, but there were times when I asked a basic strategy question, or specific hand question, and got a repsponse kind of like , "yeah we'll talk about that tomorrow."

I made a mistake in paying him $600 up front, but I'm young and naive, what can I say... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I really don't expect to get anything worthwhile from him after this post, and I guess the odds are pretty good I wont get a refund either. If I have to sacrifice $300 so that other people don't get strung along like I have been, I guess I will.

I guess at this point, I need to start looking for another coach.

[Grunch]

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I'm sure that's not how you define your morality

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You're right, it's not. If I were snowbank I would have refunded the money long ago. Honestly I think they are both being bad here for different reasons, but what is right isn't the point of this thread. The OP was attempting to argue that he had a right to a refund, and this is the point I disagree with. Again I think he should recieve a refund; but I also think he has no claim to one.

I'm going to follow your lead and resign from this thread, for the same reasons.