Is This Cheating?

[Darryl_P]

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What about a player with ESP?

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This is the most challenging one so far IMO, but I would say the opponent can reasonably believe no one has ESP, so it would be cheating to use it. Same goes for X-ray vision, marked cards, or a hidden camera.

I'm surprised the ESP issue hasn't come up more often in the framework of poker. Poker would seem like an ideal medium to prove its existence, if it really does exist that is.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

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Ignoring effort required for set-up and lucky genetics please explain to me all the the differences between the following:

Being born with Xray vision and using it to see all the cards.

Marking the cards for your benefit.

Have an operation on your eyes so they gain Xray vision.

Wearing xray vision glasses.

Noticing someone else is marking the cards, doing nothing about it, and taking advantage of the information.

You're 8 feet tall and your height lets you look over nearby players to see their hand.

You're 6 feet tall and notice the 8 foot player doing this. So you put some sort of "ass-booster" into your pants so you can do it as well.

You shave half an inch off the front 2 legs of the chairs so people lean forward allowing you to glance at their hands more often.

You install invisible hole card cams into the table.

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The key to these is what your opponent can reasonably believe.

He can reasonably believe the cards are not marked, there is no hidden camera watching his cards, and that no one has x-ray vision. He is therefore not responsible to protect against those things.

He can't reasonably believe that his chair is flat when it is leaning forward, nor can he reasonably believe no one is watching him from above when there he is right there. He is therefore responsible to protect against those things.

Any more scenarios?

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Many casual players playing online have a belief that their opposition doesn't have pokertracker and PAHUD running and has access to all that information instantly. Now while I don't think this is cheating whatsoever, most newer players have a belief that this isn't going on or if it is that sites somehow prohibit this. There is no way their belief is unreasonable. So are they being cheated?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

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What about a player with ESP?

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This is the most challenging one so far IMO, but I would say the opponent can reasonably believe no one has ESP, so it would be cheating to use it. Same goes for X-ray vision, marked cards, or a hidden camera.

I'm surprised the ESP issue hasn't come up more often in the framework of poker. Poker would seem like an ideal medium to prove its existence, if it really does exist that is.

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So If I believe ESP is real (lol) and some player is reading my mind at the table I'm not being cheated?

[Darryl_P]

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So If I believe ESP is real (lol) and some player is reading my mind at the table I'm not being cheated?


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I said it depends on what he can reasonably believe which in this case is that there is no ESP. I didn't say it depends on what he actually does believe. That's another matter altogether.

[Darryl_P]

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Many casual players playing online have a belief that their opposition doesn't have pokertracker and PAHUD running and has access to all that information instantly. Now while I don't think this is cheating whatsoever, most newer players have a belief that this isn't going on or if it is that sites somehow prohibit this. There is no way their belief is unreasonable. So are they being cheated?


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Good question. This one can probably be argued both ways, but I'd agree that this is not cheating. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that no one uses high-powered analysis software. Unlike x-ray vision or ESP, it's pretty easy to prove that such software exists and is easily accessible.

[mjkidd]

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I think cheating involves deliberately violating the rules of the game in order to profit from the violation(s). I don't see where the rules have been violated in either case.

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So if he has Parkinson's disease and sometimes exposes them to seat 3,its OK to look? Is it OK to move to seat 3 for that purpose. What about lowering your chair?

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Yes to all.

[thomasperfecto]

I think if it happens the once then it's forgivable.
If on the other hand this guy is doing it regulaly then you should let him know.

I was playing A-5with some friends on Friday. I Jokingly asked the guy to my left to show me his cards and to my amazement he obliged. Now admitedly I only saw one card and I was staying pat with the nuts so it made no diffenece to me anyhow. Would you consider that cheating?

[Alex/Mugaaz]

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Many casual players playing online have a belief that their opposition doesn't have pokertracker and PAHUD running and has access to all that information instantly. Now while I don't think this is cheating whatsoever, most newer players have a belief that this isn't going on or if it is that sites somehow prohibit this. There is no way their belief is unreasonable. So are they being cheated?


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Good question. This one can probably be argued both ways, but I'd agree that this is not cheating. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that no one uses high-powered analysis software. Unlike x-ray vision or ESP, it's pretty easy to prove that such software exists and is easily accessible.

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Woah. You're changing your stance here or I didn't understand you correctly. It's foolhardy for them to believe that it isn't possible or never goes on, but they have a VERY reasonable expectation (given their knowledge) that this isn't going on in the game they are playing.

If you are playing with one of these people and you are using PT/PA, AND if he would leave the game if he knew about it. Are you cheating based on your stance? I don't see how you can say "it depends here" it has to be either yes or no.

[schroedy]

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Many casual players playing online have a belief that their opposition doesn't have pokertracker and PAHUD running and has access to all that information instantly. Now while I don't think this is cheating whatsoever, most newer players have a belief that this isn't going on or if it is that sites somehow prohibit this. There is no way their belief is unreasonable. So are they being cheated?


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Good question. This one can probably be argued both ways, but I'd agree that this is not cheating. I don't think it's reasonable to believe that no one uses high-powered analysis software. Unlike x-ray vision or ESP, it's pretty easy to prove that such software exists and is easily accessible.

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And I think that it's pretty easy to prove that players (and dealers) are inadvertently exposing cards all the time and that part of good play is to be aware enough to notice that when it happens.

[andyfox]

I brought up ESP to compare it with your x-ray vision. When we play, we have an expectation that nobody can see our cards unless we do something sloppy with them. If we knew that x-ray vision or ESP existed, we'd likely not play cards, or the set-up of the game would change so that those with those powers could not take advantage of them.

The issue, though, is when a player is sloppy with his cards, are we cheating by using the information gained to our advantage. I recently saw a no-limit player who would always lift his cards up of the table to the height of his eyes, look at them, then put them down. I could see, on one hand, from my point of view sweating a player on the other side of the table, that one of his cards was paint.

Were I at the table, I'd tell the player he needs to protect his cards better. But if he continues to do this and I happen to see one of his cards, am I cheating?