Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop - Page 6

renodoc · #51 09-19-2005, 08:17 PM

CSC:

I don't dislike your logic, but this is very early in this tournament and why not make this move in a better spot? You aren't even sure if any of your outs are good if you get called by a real hand.

Now change the 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and I like your line a lot. A whole lot.

Hotrod0823 · #52 09-19-2005, 08:21 PM

Ok I see it now.

ATx, A9s, QJx etc are all in the range of possibiities. Not to mention, 99, TT etc.

One final thought about putting out a continuation bet: Doesn't that at leat help you define your opponents hands somewhat? Yes they may c/r with air but you may also be way behind a set of T's and at least you get away cheap before the turn makes the board more enticing.

I am not sure what is worse giving up 1000-1200 now or losing more because your "free card" helped you just enough to hang you vs the opponets flopped set.

adanthar · #53 09-19-2005, 08:31 PM

Let's put it this way: I think I know where this hand is going next, and I'm gonna put the spoiler/probable correct play in white. Of course I could very well be wrong about it, but I think that reflects my reasoning.

<font color="white"> Hero checks. The turn is an ace, or maybe a jack. MJ bets into 2 people. You have two choices: call and then check or fold most rivers, or fold outright. </font>

Roman · #54 09-19-2005, 08:54 PM

I check behind and play poker on the turn. Could you represent an overpair after the flop?

grandgnu · #55 09-19-2005, 08:56 PM

MJ is out of position and sandwhiched between you and the CO. If you lead out with a continuation bet here, you're going to find out very quickly where you stand.

Leading out is best because:

1. It gives you an opportunity to win the hand right there

2. It will provide you with additional information regarding your opponents willingness to continue with this hand

By checking, you are pretty much begging one of them to take it away from you on the turn. If you hit your Ace or your Jack on the turn, how can you know it's any good? Your opponent may have you outkicked, may have hit a straight, etc.

Checking also allows all underpairs to get a free shot at a set. Betting now provides you with the best opportunity to take the pot down, or get out cheap.

By not betting, you lose control of the hand, and allow another player to possibly take control. Let's say you hit your Jack on the turn, but one of your opponents called your raise with K/Q suited. Now you're in trouble, and check-calling all your money down with the worst of it.

If you hit your ace, but one of them was on A/Q, you're still behind. Whereas the A/Q might dump on this flop since it provides little prospect for improvement.

kuro · #56 09-19-2005, 08:57 PM

Part of raising preflop is to give your continuation bet some credibility. The size of the pot makes the check-raise a much more significant percentage of MJ's stack so that he is less inclined to do it with air because I could really have it or the other villain involved in the hand could be slow playing.

If I'm not going to make a continuation bet on a lot of flops then I totally agree with your preflop line of just limping behind because with stacks this deep you're getting preflop callers.

Rduke55 · #57 09-19-2005, 09:03 PM

So MJ is a good solid pro. I doubt he got his success by being as predictable as everyone says in this thread so far. People are making it out that's it's almost a sure thing we're getting checkraised here.
I know this is deep-stack poker, different form the online tourneys we play, but I just can't see the opponents being so predictable as to fear the checkraise in these situations all the time. Why? Because he didn't make a probe bet with two people (including the PF raiser) yet to act? Don't the deep stacks also allow people to take a flyer on a hand and let it go more easily.
MJ's barely got us covered and a substantial check-raise of our bet is a considerable portion of his stack. I can't see him making this play so regularly with air.
While I think it's close, I think that most of the people are saying that betting here is clearly wrong and I think that it's closer than that (with me liking a bet).

rockythecat99 · #58 09-19-2005, 09:11 PM

After thinking about it a bit more I think a continuation bet is right. First off say you check on the flop and a J or an Ace comes then what? Lets say tighty CO has AQ or AK and limped cuz "its a drawing hand" then we just bought ourselves two outs by betting and getting him to fold since he is tight. If we get reraised then its clear we are beat and fold and don't lose anymore money on the hand. And maybe just maybe this is a combination of something like AQ and 88-22 for MJ and he might call our bet but fold to any broadway bet on the turn. Either way by betting we make it easier for ourselves to either win the hand or get out of a hand with one single bet.

MrMoo · #59 09-19-2005, 09:24 PM

CSC,

I'm curious about your play. In a given tournament, how often will you make this play? I think this is a fairly common situation. How often does it work? When you get called, what are you usually getting called with?

AtticusFinch · #60 09-19-2005, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I check behind and play poker on the turn. Could you represent an overpair after the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the turn. If you check behind and a straight or flush card falls, then you look more like you hit your draw.

Following that logic, I check behind here and hope to pick up a draw, setting up a semi-bluff on the turn, depending on reads and/or the action. If either villain happened to hit a set, he sure won't be happy with his slow-play if a scare card falls and he's raised (or 3-bet on a CR) on the turn. A tight player at this level might well be capable of a laydown in that spot.