400: What a Sweet Ending

[threads13]

FWIW, I think an extra bet could have been put in somewhere. I think a river value bet is fine.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I think checking the flop is fine - at least against the players I play against (i.e. - could VERY easily have a nine, and will bluff later streets or pay off with worse hands). I do see what some of you are saying that if the blinds are only calling pf raises with pocket pairs in these games then betting the flop makes sense. However, a) will these same players actually get all-in on this flop with 88 or TT? and b) if you routinely chose to not gun it out on a paired-mid-card spr 11 flop with an overpair I don't think you'd lose as much value as y'all are talking about, and the upside can be pretty big (getting value later in the hand, masking your range, picking off bluffs, not going broke to a 9, etc.).

QTip, you did perhaps play it a little more carefully than you needed to on the turn and river. You might've raised the turn (either with the intention of folding to a 3-bet or getting it in, depending on villain), or value bet the river (definitely with the intention of folding to a checkraise).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the visit here Sunny. It's always nice to get some confirmation from someone who co-authored a good book on the topic that what you did was "fine - at least against players they play against." [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

However, more so than aligning with my line taken, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on why I chose to do it since those reasons were mostly based on quotes from PNLHE.

Here they are from deeper in the thread.

"I guess I could sum my flop check up by quoting a couple lines from PNLHE:

1. Good players plan ahead to avoid tough decisions.

2. Avoid being threatened with an all-in when you aren't committed but want to see a show down.

How can we allow him to give us a tough decision? How can we allow him to threaten us with an all in?

Bet.

How can we avoid a tough decision here? How can we avoid being threatened with an all in since we're not committed and want to be at showdown?

Check.

Does it cost us much to check? Not at all. The value we miss if he called the flop can easily be made up and more by inducing bets from weaker hands. Free cards are almost a mute point here, so we're giving up little there as well.

Also, if we bet, we can expect him to make the correct response about 90% of the time.

"Bad nl players make things easy on their opponents by making plays to which the expected response is also the correct response. Bad players also don't plan ahead, and they wander into traps set by their opponents."

I'm a very active stealer in this game. If I were in the sb against me, I could have plenty of 9s. Also, pps and other hands. "

I'm the king of misapplication. Am I thinking correctly here?

[Peleus]

Ignoring SPR's for one moment, how do you see you're REM application on say the flop and turn?

[Sunny Mehta]

QTip, I like the way you phrased that a lot. You're totally applying the material correctly. It seems to me that the disagreement in this thread is more about your application against a particular type of player. More specifically, his exact range and exact tendencies.

I think your understanding and application is particularly excellent against tougher opponents, which you will encounter as you move up in limits. And that's great if you have aspirations to move up. Just remember that poker is a game of "adjusting the formula" to the opponent types. So the question is, what kind of opponent is this?

I don't know your game well enough to give you a cut and dried answer, and that's a good thing because I feel my job is to help you arrive at that yourself. Some in this thread have made pretty vehement statements about this opponent's range and tendencies, and those statements might make a different line more optimal. You might want to just think about that. You may ultimately disagree with them, and that's fine.

Here are a few more things to think about. The opponent is 15/12, right? That is definitely nice to know, but not the whole story either. For starters, your sample size is very small. Also, what is his vpip in the blinds in a HU situation? Is it tighter, looser, or the same? What kind of hands will he call with? Will he call with QJs, etc.? To me it's crazy to take a 9 completely out of his range, but I guess it's possible. Also, what hands would he 3-bet you preflop with? Will he reraise with QQ-TT? A lot of players do, so if that's the case, you have another argument against those saying you should bet the flop to "stack QQ-TT". And finally, what are his postflop tendencies? Does he play tough, aggressive poker or is he really passive?

Just some things to think about. All in all it's great that you are analyzing this hand in such detail from so many angles. That's how you get better at this game.

[Teddie]

Why did you post the results Q?

[coordi]

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you post the results Q?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he was hoping everyone would be like, whoa you saved so much money cause he had AA, great read!!

But makes no bets on a money board, and has no clue where he stood in the hand. I wouldnt be suprised if villain had shown KJ or something less.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you post the results Q?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he was hoping everyone would be like, whoa you saved so much money cause he had AA, great read!!

But makes no bets on a money board, and has no clue where he stood in the hand. I wouldnt be suprised if villain had shown KJ or something less.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds negative coordi. I think you'll find me to be pretty egoless in the forum. I couldn't care less if someone sees something I do as "great read" stuff or not". I was absolutely shocked to see AA.

When I posted this, I actually considered putting (LC) in the title. I posted the results because I didn't even take the time to delete them from the converter.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
QTip, I like the way you phrased that a lot. You're totally applying the material correctly. It seems to me that the disagreement in this thread is more about your application against a particular type of player. More specifically, his exact range and exact tendencies.

I think your understanding and application is particularly excellent against tougher opponents, which you will encounter as you move up in limits. And that's great if you have aspirations to move up. Just remember that poker is a game of "adjusting the formula" to the opponent types. So the question is, what kind of opponent is this?

I don't know your game well enough to give you a cut and dried answer, and that's a good thing because I feel my job is to help you arrive at that yourself. Some in this thread have made pretty vehement statements about this opponent's range and tendencies, and those statements might make a different line more optimal. You might want to just think about that. You may ultimately disagree with them, and that's fine.

Here are a few more things to think about. The opponent is 15/12, right? That is definitely nice to know, but not the whole story either. For starters, your sample size is very small. Also, what is his vpip in the blinds in a HU situation? Is it tighter, looser, or the same? What kind of hands will he call with? Will he call with QJs, etc.? To me it's crazy to take a 9 completely out of his range, but I guess it's possible. Also, what hands would he 3-bet you preflop with? Will he reraise with QQ-TT? A lot of players do, so if that's the case, you have another argument against those saying you should bet the flop to "stack QQ-TT". And finally, what are his postflop tendencies? Does he play tough, aggressive poker or is he really passive?

Just some things to think about. All in all it's great that you are analyzing this hand in such detail from so many angles. That's how you get better at this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the thoughts and encouragment Sunny. I'm a beginner in this game, and I am hoping to move up to bigger games.

The "other things" you're mentioning here I need to get better at aquiring and using that information. Right now I play quite a few tables at once, so I don't get those specific reads. I need to start cutting back and paying more attention to those things. I've been multitabling to build the BR is all.

Thx again.

[threads13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you post the results Q?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he was hoping everyone would be like, whoa you saved so much money cause he had AA, great read!!

But makes no bets on a money board, and has no clue where he stood in the hand. I wouldnt be suprised if villain had shown KJ or something less.

[/ QUOTE ]

coordi, your read of QTip's reasoning was off in many ways.

More importantly, your above comment is just screaming to me that you are thinking nothing more when analyzing this hand than "I have an overpair, so I should bet". Certainly you realize that poker is more complicated than that?

It is great practice to think about the alternatives when analyzing a hand.

For example:

"I tend to bet the flop with an overpair, but when shouldn't I?"

After reading all the valid points in this thread for checking the flop, you are being a bit insulting and, quite frankly, childish with your previous post.

It is important to not group-think as it is very easy to do in this atmosphere.

[coordi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why did you post the results Q?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because he was hoping everyone would be like, whoa you saved so much money cause he had AA, great read!!

But makes no bets on a money board, and has no clue where he stood in the hand. I wouldnt be suprised if villain had shown KJ or something less.

[/ QUOTE ]

coordi, your read of QTip's reasoning was off in many ways.

More importantly, your above comment is just screaming to me that you are thinking nothing more when analyzing this hand than "I have an overpair, so I should bet". Certainly you realize that poker is more complicated than that?

It is great practice to think about the alternatives when analyzing a hand.

For example:

"I tend to bet the flop with an overpair, but when shouldn't I?"

After reading all the valid points in this thread for checking the flop, you are being a bit insulting and, quite frankly, childish with your previous post.

It is important to not group-think as it is very easy to do in this atmosphere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was the first person to post I thought he played bad, hardly group thinking.

He shouldnt have posted results.

I think he played poorly, I'm sorry if there isnt more to the hand than I think you should bet the flop or raise the turn, because you could very likely be ahead here. Of course we don't know where we are at because we dont bet the flop or raise the turn. I can't rule any of villains range out of possability. So I guess in actuality, considering these factors, he played the hand to perfection. He lost/won the minimum in hand he was unsure of.