A/C in Action: The AP Case

[Copernicus]

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I don't know the details of AP. I had thought that it wasn't the site itself but an employee who hacked it?

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There were (at least) two people involved - one of the main owners (once you get past the string of dummy corporations) and his best friend, who was in charge of AP for a while. The best friend was obviously fired, but blackmailed AP into not pressing charges; the owner was forced out but may or may not eventually be back - we really have no way of knowing. Details in BBV.

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Thanks for the cliff's notes. Given that level of management involvement its amazing they havent lost their entire market.

ALaw...I wasnt implying that you didn't understand what adanthar meant, just that those who claimed not too were being disingenuous or worse.

[PoorSkillz]

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I don't know the details of AP. I had thought that it wasn't the site itself but an employee who hacked it?

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There were (at least) two people involved - one of the main owners (once you get past the string of dummy corporations) and his best friend, who was in charge of AP for a while. The best friend was obviously fired, but blackmailed AP into not pressing charges; the owner was forced out but may or may not eventually be back - we really have no way of knowing. Details in BBV.

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The problem is the true story can pretty much only be found in the BBV section of 2p2 or other places that someone would have to actively seek out. When most people still believe that the cheating was only an isolated incident done by some "geek" hacker (as was the only story reported in the very few articles written by the mainstream media) the players there won't mind as much as if they knew the people in charge were corrupt.

Sure a lot of the serious poker players probably know, but most fish probably still don't know the whole story, and the serious players greedily stay to prey on the fish thinking it can't happen again and obviously don't want to inform the fish. Hence, no decrease in players. (This probably isn't 100% accurate, but certainly has some merit)

It's about time for some mainstream media sources to report on the true story of Absolute Poker. ESPN, where you at?

[Exsubmariner]

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You are missing the forest for the trees. The market may not be totally free, but as there are a half dozen big choices for US players and over a dozen for everyone else, there are plenty of options available. It's certainly enough to judge the effectiveness of a boycott and/or the overall hit that a site found guilty of rigging will take.

That hit appears to be 0% when the entire community knows about it but there is no admission of guilt, 5% in week 1 after that admission, and ~3% in week 2.

In other words, the market very, very clearly did not react to the perceived honesty of AP or lack thereof.



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My point, exactly.

[Exsubmariner]

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So because some people are dumb and lazy everyone should have to pay for them to get what they want?


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Sorry to break it to you buddy, but that's a cornerstone of what society is all about. It's the way things are. Makes no difference about the ideals of right or wrong. Better stop being hung up about it is all I can say.

[Exsubmariner]

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That's lame.

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Winnar!!!!

[Exsubmariner]

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Right, but "having to shoulder the cost of your preferences" is the single most important driver of society, IMO. Thats the whole point of pvn's "Give everyone a free pony" line. If people arent faced to pay the price of realizing their preferences then there are no limits. The poor will drive the rich into oblivion with their whims.



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Okay, lets go with that.

People get behind other people that say they will act in the best interests of the greater whole. We (human beings) will get behind a thug who brutalizes us so long as he protects us from the certain death that awaits us from the barbarian horde over the hills. The same applies for bureaucrats etc. There is always going to be someone who sees opportunity in others unwillingness to do the hard work themselves. But, those who have something to loose will always find a way to protect it. I actually come out with the post below on this one. The poor will drive themselves into oblivion. Or, more aptly, the apparatus that is their life support. The rich will always prosper.

[Exsubmariner]

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Whatever semantic argument you want to make prohibition is government intervention in a market, and that government intervention distorts the market. ACland, as proposed, would be absent that intervention and thus your proposal that the online gambling industry mimics a free market is false.



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I think you should look up the difference between statutory law and administrative law. Further, you should create a post of no less than 1500 words comparing and contrasting the two. Perhaps then, you will understand that I am not playing semantics. I am making the assertion based on an understanding of legal practices. You, on the other hand have bought into a logical fallacy (false alternative) perpetrated by the peddlers of AC.

[Zeno]

Interesting thread. I decided after reading most of it that Exsubmariner, Adanthar, and Copernicus are not comedians, and perhaps a few others I missed, or not. Anyway this thread does much to solidify my misanthropy so I thank Exsubmariner for its genesis and sustainability.

Being the twisted goon that I am, the hilarity I received from this whole incident was marvelous to a high degree. My venture into online poker lasted perhaps one or two months of causal low stakes play 3-4 years ago. It was a smash and grab raid of positive but low monetary value. I had better uses for my time I decided and have never doubted the wisdom of my decision. Though of course I still post on 2+2 so that mark is still against me.

As for redress in this incident, I quote from Ambrose Bierce’s The Devil’s Dictionary:

“Redress, n - Reparation without satisfaction”


Le Misanthrope

[Exsubmariner]

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Anyway this thread does much to solidify my misanthropy so I thank Exsubmariner for its genesis and sustainability.


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You are most certainly welcome, sir. My pleasure.

Somehow, this one statement makes all my sufferage of fools and the slings and arrows that go with it worth it. It's comforting to know there are others out there who can see the truth.

[ianlippert]

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You are missing the forest for the trees. The market may not be totally free, but as there are a half dozen big choices for US players and over a dozen for everyone else, there are plenty of options available. It's certainly enough to judge the effectiveness of a boycott and/or the overall hit that a site found guilty of rigging will take.

That hit appears to be 0% when the entire community knows about it but there is no admission of guilt, 5% in week 1 after that admission, and ~3% in week 2.

In other words, the market very, very clearly did not react to the perceived honesty of AP or lack thereof.



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My point, exactly.

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I still really dont get how this arguement has any bearing on AC other than the fact that you guys really want to believe that it does.

First of all how much was actually stolen and how often does this happen on AP? Actual casinos are rigged and millions of players get "cheated" on a daily basis. Not only that but the casinos are quite open about how much you are getting cheated and yet millions of people continue to allow themselves to get cheated out of their money on a daily basis. So obviously the market doesnt care even if you guys do.

Secondly you guys assume that there will be no legal recourse in AC. Although I dont agree that the US ban on poker really has an effect on the markets ability to act like a free market, since there are no legal regulated sites there is no legal recourse under the american system. What makes you think that AC DROs or whatever wont have poker sites under their juristiction?