2+2 Ask the PPA - Page 6

Legislurker · #51 09-05-2007, 08:16 PM

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Also, does he intend to organize a more aggressive legislative contact drive. I am thinking a model based on MoveOn would be effective, where they email you the numbers of your representatives along with the message to deliver to them, and provide a link for you to click saying that you contacted them and allowing you to describe their response if any.

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They do have a process similar to this in action on their main page called "what you can do." If you follow the directions and complete the forms, they track your actions because they then sent me a thank you e-mail for being an "August Advocate."

In a previous campaign we used this information to gague activity, and often then followed up the inital personal e-mails with other information. In the 72 hour campaign a GOP grassroots effort this became the basis in part for selection of "72 hour Team Leaders" in some states.

I would hope that is they are using this activity response and tie it into TheEngineer's letters as well if they already don't they should. It is these types of automatic computer based that become really valuable.

D$D

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Well let them know they need to hire professional help for the website. It blows. On so many levels. That is their public face, and its horrible. How can you claim to have 600k members and the top posts on the message board barely total 60 VIEWS.

oldbookguy · #52 09-05-2007, 08:33 PM

D$D, I am not one to critize anyone working for our cause.

First, you state at one point, "In a previous campaign we used this information to gague activity, and often then", do you or do you not represent the PPA?

What he is asking you to ask, not answer for the PPA (are you fielding questions for them now too?, see above), would / will the PPA actively e-mail members action to be taken.

Yes, the info, as we all know, is on the PPA page, heck it is on my page, the Senate page, The House page......

Organizations such as Move on and others post and e-mail to motivate their base weekly and sometimes more often on issues.

That is the question / suggestion presented to you to present to the PPA, not answer for the PPA, unless.....

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Also, does he intend to organize a more aggressive legislative contact drive. I am thinking a model based on MoveOn would be effective, where they email you the numbers of your representatives along with the message to deliver to them, and provide a link for you to click saying that you contacted them and allowing you to describe their response if any.

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They do have a process similar to this in action on their main page called "what you can do." If you follow the directions and complete the forms, they track your actions because they then sent me a thank you e-mail for being an "August Advocate."

In a previous campaign we used this information to gague activity, and often then followed up the inital personal e-mails with other information. In the 72 hour campaign a GOP grassroots effort this became the basis in part for selection of "72 hour Team Leaders" in some states.

I would hope that is they are using this activity response and tie it into TheEngineer's letters as well if they already don't they should. It is these types of automatic computer based that become really valuable.

D$D

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DeadMoneyDad · #53 09-05-2007, 08:38 PM

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Well let them know they need to hire professional help for the website. It blows. On so many levels. That is their public face, and its horrible. How can you claim to have 600k members and the top posts on the message board barely total 60 VIEWS.

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Well I was sitting here a while ago thinking of how to summarize this thread, to include both the questions as well as to capture the mood and full taste of this fourm and issue.

I noticed as you pointed out, that my silly little posts here have generated more replies in 2 days and more views than many on the PPA's forum. I doubt that any effective grassroots effort would want to try and operate in anothers forum long-term, initially you have to use whatever method is working to get any message out.

Well I came up with an either brilliant or completely lazy way to capture it all. I sent John a link to this thread.

I'll still discuss various topics tomorrow, but I can say that I delivered all of the topics as well as the tone.....

D$D

frommagio · #54 09-05-2007, 08:54 PM

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No. Our position concerning the PPA is neutral. We do have some issues with them and want to make sure, because of these issues, that they deal with us directly.

Best wishes,
Mason

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I'd like to remind you that, just as D$D doesn't represent your organization, Two Plus Two doesn't represent the poker community as a whole. Attempting to corner PPA into these forums to address issues that you have with them is nonsensical. When I have problems with an organization the onus is on me to make an effort to contact them. Nobody is going to magically appear at my doorstep so that I can voice my concerns therefore I have to make that effort.

The PPA has forums of their own. By the same regard, they're free and you're more than welcome to sign up at their forums to express the concerns you have with their organization.

I personally see your request for people to not submit questions as a hindrance to the poker community as a whole. I have to wonder whether your original reply to D$D is fueled by selfish motives. From day one since UIGEA Two Plus Two hasn't expressed a desire to help the poker community with regard to the legislation. In fact, you came out directly and said that you're in the business of publishing books and not political lobbying. In my eyes, this is just another example of Two Plus Two hindering the progress needed here.

If you really want to help the poker community, take steps to try and open the communication channels. If that means signing up at their forums and making efforts to contact them, then so be it. I personally salute D$D, The Engineer, obg and various others who have put forth way more visible effort than any 'representative' of 2p2 has since the inception of PPA and UIGEA.

I see no harm in D$D bringing a list of questions from individuals, who happen to be members of these forums, and returning to these forums with answers for the individuals who want to ask them. I'm sure you can agree that, from an organizational standpoint, having one Q&A session that addresses a large number of issues is quite efficient. This could actually result in a great deal of useful information. Instead I fear that most of the posters here will see the red name suggesting not to send questions and, in the end, the poker community at large will be the ones who suffer.

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This all seems pretty insulting to me.

MM and 2+2 have done a lot for the poker community (for free), whereas PPA has done less than nothing. This organization has an appalling lack of disclosure, and we're still not even sure who or what they represent.

Why the very high standards for the very high achievers, and the extremely low standards for the non-achievers?

If the PPA had motives and agenda that aligned with our interests, they would have been here long ago building their support. There's no reason for them to expose themselves to the scrutiny they would receive here unless they're confident that they would obtain support. I think they're smart enough to avoid what would be a well-deserved negative reception.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll respect PPA once they earn it. I think Mason has earned the respect, and his request should be honored. He certainly doesn't deserve to be insulted.

DeadMoneyDad · #55 09-05-2007, 09:04 PM

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D$D, I am not one to critize anyone working for our cause.

First, you state at one point, "In a previous campaign we used this information to gague activity, and often then", do you or do you not represent the PPA?

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Sorry if it wasn't clear. A better statement would have been in a previous policial campaign some years ago, we used action tracking for various purposes.

My knowledge of how the PPA currently uses some tracking efforts was based on the fact that I was sent an e-mail thanking me for following the actions suggested on their web site. My knowledge was based only on my actions as a non-dues paying member of the PPA. Again I have no offical affiliation with the PPA, 2+2, or any other organization.

Are my posts really that unclear?

D$D

IndyFish · #56 09-05-2007, 09:15 PM

D$D, I commend you on your effort to have a personal meeting with Pappas and your offer to relay our questions to him. It's extremely unfortunate that the offer fell on (mostly) deaf ears. The attacks back and forth, from both the 2p2 supporters and the PPA supporters, only serves to prove just how disorganized we remain.

I personally (and I in no way intend to represent ANYONE but myself) would ask the PPA to communicate better. To the best of my knowledge they don't appear on ANY forums, not just 2p2. They don't even respond to posts in their OWN forum as far as I could tell. (I'm not counting the stickies for recent stories. I mean dialog.)

Outside of this forum (mostly bitching) I haven't even seen any mention of the PPA in months. They need to get the message out. It would be nice to see a FTP or Stars commercial during a TV tournament that ended in "Would you like to play online for real money? Join the PPA."

Do they plan to address the NFL issue? Are they getting involved in any of the upcoming court battles? Talking up the WTO dispute to Congress? What is the PLAN??? Inquiring minds would like to know. (No smileys.)

/rant

CybrPunk · #57 09-05-2007, 09:51 PM

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No. Our position concerning the PPA is neutral. We do have some issues with them and want to make sure, because of these issues, that they deal with us directly.

Best wishes,
Mason

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I'd like to remind you that, just as D$D doesn't represent your organization, Two Plus Two doesn't represent the poker community as a whole. Attempting to corner PPA into these forums to address issues that you have with them is nonsensical. When I have problems with an organization the onus is on me to make an effort to contact them. Nobody is going to magically appear at my doorstep so that I can voice my concerns therefore I have to make that effort.

The PPA has forums of their own. By the same regard, they're free and you're more than welcome to sign up at their forums to express the concerns you have with their organization.

I personally see your request for people to not submit questions as a hindrance to the poker community as a whole. I have to wonder whether your original reply to D$D is fueled by selfish motives. From day one since UIGEA Two Plus Two hasn't expressed a desire to help the poker community with regard to the legislation. In fact, you came out directly and said that you're in the business of publishing books and not political lobbying. In my eyes, this is just another example of Two Plus Two hindering the progress needed here.

If you really want to help the poker community, take steps to try and open the communication channels. If that means signing up at their forums and making efforts to contact them, then so be it. I personally salute D$D, The Engineer, obg and various others who have put forth way more visible effort than any 'representative' of 2p2 has since the inception of PPA and UIGEA.

I see no harm in D$D bringing a list of questions from individuals, who happen to be members of these forums, and returning to these forums with answers for the individuals who want to ask them. I'm sure you can agree that, from an organizational standpoint, having one Q&A session that addresses a large number of issues is quite efficient. This could actually result in a great deal of useful information. Instead I fear that most of the posters here will see the red name suggesting not to send questions and, in the end, the poker community at large will be the ones who suffer.

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This all seems pretty insulting to me.

MM and 2+2 have done a lot for the poker community (for free), whereas PPA has done less than nothing. This organization has an appalling lack of disclosure, and we're still not even sure who or what they represent.

Why the very high standards for the very high achievers, and the extremely low standards for the non-achievers?

If the PPA had motives and agenda that aligned with our interests, they would have been here long ago building their support. There's no reason for them to expose themselves to the scrutiny they would receive here unless they're confident that they would obtain support. I think they're smart enough to avoid what would be a well-deserved negative reception.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll respect PPA once they earn it. I think Mason has earned the respect, and his request should be honored. He certainly doesn't deserve to be insulted.

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Nowhere in my reply did I intend to insult Mason. I agree that Two Plus Two does a great service by hosting these forums and providing a platform for us to communicate, however the simple truth is that they've openly stated that they are a book publishing company, not political lobbyists. I can respect Mason and Two Plus Two as the great book publisher they are. If that's where they wish to draw the line, that's fine. It's their prerogative.

That being the case, demanding that the PPA come here to answer questions and be held accountable to a book publisher is insane. It doesn't matter that this is the largest poker community in the world. The PPA does't represent Two Plus Two. They represent their members. I'm sure that many of their members are not Two Plus Two members. Honestly, if I were the PPA, I'd avoid this forum like the plague due to the immature nature and abrasive content found in just about every thread. Having intelligent discussion is nearly impossible here. At least on their forums its something they can self-moderate and not be subjected to abuse. Criticism is fine, but let's face it - way too many posters on this forum are unnecessarily abusive.

The only real dispute Two Plus Two has with the PPA (that we've been made aware of) is the fact that CardPlayer has too much control over the PPA board and that's something that Mason (and others) doesn't agree with. Again, that's fine. It's his choice to make.

Suggesting that nobody submit questions for D$D to bring to John is a hindrance to our cause and does a great disservice to the poker community. It helps nobody and actually, in the end, I believe it hurts our cause. There's no upside to Mason's suggestion, only a downside.

The opposite is true of submitting questions for D$D to bring to the PPA. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I stand by my statement that Two Plus Two and its representatives are hindering our cause by suggesting we not submit questions, especially when you consider that they are the owners and representatives of the largest poker community in the world. They should realize that, if they have issues with the PPA as an organization, it's up to Two Plus Two to bring those issues to them and not vice versa. I honestly feel the two entities should be working together, not against each other, yet the only thing I've seen from the representatives of Two Plus Two are statements indicating that they are remaining neutral and are merely book publishers...

So I'll give them respect as the great book publishers they are.... which is the only respect they have earned from me.

whangarei · #58 09-05-2007, 10:12 PM

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Also, does he intend to organize a more aggressive legislative contact drive. I am thinking a model based on MoveOn would be effective, where they email you the numbers of your representatives along with the message to deliver to them, and provide a link for you to click saying that you contacted them and allowing you to describe their response if any.

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They do have a process similar to this in action on their main page called "what you can do." If you follow the directions and complete the forms, they track your actions because they then sent me a thank you e-mail for being an "August Advocate."

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As OBG said (though I do not share his at times irrational suspicion of your motivations and affiliations), an email to members is more effective than having a link on their home page. For lazy people like me we will not regularly check the PPA page, but if we get an email that says "Wexler bill due for vote, call your Congessman 202-555-5555!" we can pretty easily take useful action.

Legislurker · #59 09-05-2007, 11:26 PM

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Also, does he intend to organize a more aggressive legislative contact drive. I am thinking a model based on MoveOn would be effective, where they email you the numbers of your representatives along with the message to deliver to them, and provide a link for you to click saying that you contacted them and allowing you to describe their response if any.

[/ QUOTE ]

They do have a process similar to this in action on their main page called "what you can do." If you follow the directions and complete the forms, they track your actions because they then sent me a thank you e-mail for being an "August Advocate."

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As OBG said (though I do not share his at times irrational suspicion of your motivations and affiliations), an email to members is more effective than having a link on their home page. For lazy people like me we will not regularly check the PPA page, but if we get an email that says "Wexler bill due for vote, call your Congessman 202-555-5555!" we can pretty easily take useful action.

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Its so staggering what we could do with resources and lists.
If there are 2k users logged into 2p2 when Mason put his number up, there are over 100k US players at poker tables(tourney, cash, and FREE). If we could get on the sites and send political alerts. If we had people's AIMs, MSN, and Yahoos getting the ongoing activities. We could have almost daily things and lobbying. Ask people to sign up for an hour or two a week, and have the PPA coordinate things. Four or five people at the handle-end of a group as big as we can assemble can accomplish a lot. Monday 2-4, call the NFL. Tuesday 11-1, the DNC. Tuesday 3-5 is the House Financial Services. THats all feasible with the money and info they have.

And they have a 5 view a day message board. Well, I guess if some people get their shirts...........

TheEngineer · #60 09-05-2007, 11:59 PM

Everyone,

Wow. Just...wow. D$D had an appointment to speak with John Pappas and decided to prepare by asking us about our concerns so he could speak intelligently about the concerns of the poker community. He also was trying to help us out. If this isn't needed, what happened to "no, but thanks anyway"?

We’re all disappointed by the opportunities that have been missed by the PPA in the past, but the question is -- what should we do going forward? I think we have two choices. We can either work with the PPA to encourage them to make the changes we want OR we can work to establish a new lobbying organization.

I think the bottom line is that they have 700,000 members, and our cause could really benefit by bringing these folks into our grassroots movement. Now that they have a new, responsive leader, I personally think we all should give the “new” PPA a chance.

Positive changes have already taken place under John Pappas’ leadership. The move to Washington D.C. is very positive. I’ve spoken to John four times now, sometimes after 9 pm (while he’s still in the office, eating Chinese take-out). John will post here in the near future to introduce himself and to share his plans with us.

I won’t sugarcoat anything; there are many open questions. Let’s post our concerns on their forum, at http://webringamerica.com/4/pokerpla...wforum.php?f=2 , or email them at email@pokerplayersalliance.org . Seems that would be more constructive than ripping D$D for daring to mention PPA.