NYU Dave v. NYU Dave 100/200 NL: Two hands.

dlpnyc21 · #1 05-05-2007, 07:35 PM

Villain in this hand is the real NYU Dave (some people mistake me for NYU Dave because my name is David, I also go to NYU, and play high-stakes poker in NYC). The real slim shady is a highly unpredictable player who has been on a massive massive rush lately in the NYC cash games. His confidence, therefore, is at an absolute all-time high.

We are playing 3-handed 100/200 NL. He is playing very solid in this session (and in general as of late), value betting very thinly (have seen him bet middle pair twice correctly v. the third player).

We have a long history and have played each other hundreds of hours. We know each other's games very well. He is capable of absolutely anything at the table, but is IMO too loose preflop and chases weak draws.

Advice on all streets on both hands welcome (I would really like to hear how you would play the ENTIRE hand, as I think I could have played all streets differently).

Effective stacks are 40kish.

Hand 1:
I raise K3hh on the button to 600, SB folds, BB (NYU dave calls).He could literally have any two at this point.

Flop is J93 one heart. He checks I check behind (is this a mistake?). I had been c-betting approximately 70% of hands after the flop in position and had been taking most down on the flop or turn.

Turn is a 3. I now have trips. He leads weak (400). I raise to 1500. Again, I'm really not sure how much merit there is in raising here, but I decided to do so for value, obviously. He calls after not much thought. I have seen him take this weak lead time many times with anything from a draw to a big hand to air trying to steal it cheap.

River is a Q. There is no flush (nor was there any flush draw). However, 108 or the gutter just got there.

He checks. I decide to value bet, I couldn't really decide on a bet size amount (what do people bet here?) but I bet 3500.

He thinks for a while, and pulls out a big stack, and checkraises to 15k. As I am thinking, he says, "the queen didn't help me," and he gets up from the table and says he can't watch and he goes into the smoke room and starts making faces at me.

What do you guys put him on, and can you let this go?

Hand 2:
Again: stacks are approx 40k effective.
NYU Dave raises button to 600 I call from the SB with 86o. This is probably a mistake but I had been playing much tighter preflop than both of these players and the implied odds in this game can be fairly high.

Flop comes out 664 two spades. I have trips. I check, he bets 500, I CR to 2500. He calls after not too much thought. Turn is a Q, non-spade. I bet 5500.

On the turn, I strongly considered check raising very big. I thought there was a reasonable chance my hand would look much more like a draw and he might pay me off wanting to protect his hand. However, I decided to lead (also, was my bet too small?) because he could have a draw and I did not want to give him a free card. He hemms and haws a little bit, and calls.

River is the 9s, completing the flush. What do people like on this river? I decided to check. He thinks for a bit, and bets 8k.

Action?

Again, I'd like to hear advice on all streets for both hands. Obviously, the river decisions on both hands are paramount, but I'd like to hear lines on other streets, as well.

Thanks,
dlpnyc21

cero_z · #2 05-05-2007, 08:04 PM

Hi Dave,

I think both are calls, though the 2nd one is a lot easier than the 1st one. In order for a good player to have you in hand 2, he needs to have had you beat before the river. Maybe he turned Qs full, but gl to him if that's the case.

Hand 1 is tricky. Raising the turn seems mandatory with a hand that strong, and yet to get action from a tough player, he needs to have something pretty damn good (open-ender or overpair) to give you action, OR you have to be regularly bluff-raising in this spot. I think you probably do, since he can obviously just be taking a stab there after you check behind.

The comments and behavior after the river bet make me want to call. Getting up and leaving, going to smoke and THEN making faces at you shows me that he wasn't comfortable enough to act cool at the table, and needed to get into a less stressful environment to get it together. "The Q didn't help me," isn't a standard comment IMO. When a good player makes a comment that you hear often from less-good players, he's usually employing some kind of fake (or double-fake). But a non-standard comment is less likely to be used this way, and at face value, he seems to be trying to say subtly that he's not bluffing. I think he is.

BobboFitos · #3 05-06-2007, 05:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think both are calls, though the 2nd one is a lot easier than the 1st one. In order for a good player to have you in hand 2, he needs to have had you beat before the river. Maybe he turned Qs full, but gl to him if that's the case.

[/ QUOTE ]
sup cero. curious why you feel this is the case, bc i feel the opposite. bc id strongly consider mucking here.

first seems like a pretty routine call, also. and fwiw, id bet the flop.

cero_z · #4 05-06-2007, 10:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think both are calls, though the 2nd one is a lot easier than the 1st one. In order for a good player to have you in hand 2, he needs to have had you beat before the river. Maybe he turned Qs full, but gl to him if that's the case.

[/ QUOTE ]
sup cero. curious why you feel this is the case, bc i feel the opposite. bc id strongly consider mucking here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I somehow missed that he could have 53s, 75s, 87s, etc. He called getting just over 2:1 on the turn, after calling a c/r on the flop. I don't expect him to have just a flush draw, and if he does, milking you for 8k when he gets there is not going to get it done. Even with a big draw, he's getting into trouble gambling on paired boards there; it's going to be very tough for the implied odds to favor him enough when he gets there to get enough value to make drawing worthwhile.

In other news, likoping is a little bitch, Gaucho is a cool guy and his posts from these games are excellent, and EM2 made a good call about likoping sounding like Grandiose. EM2 is making good contributions to this board now, and I for one am going to lay off of him.

Daut44 · #5 05-06-2007, 12:27 PM

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think both are calls, though the 2nd one is a lot easier than the 1st one. In order for a good player to have you in hand 2, he needs to have had you beat before the river. Maybe he turned Qs full, but gl to him if that's the case.

[/ QUOTE ]
sup cero. curious why you feel this is the case, bc i feel the opposite. bc id strongly consider mucking here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I somehow missed that he could have 53s, 75s, 87s, etc. He called getting just over 2:1 on the turn, after calling a c/r on the flop. I don't expect him to have just a flush draw, and if he does, milking you for 8k when he gets there is not going to get it done. Even with a big draw, he's getting into trouble gambling on paired boards there; it's going to be very tough for the implied odds to favor him enough when he gets there to get enough value to make drawing worthwhile.

In other news, likoping is a little bitch, Gaucho is a cool guy and his posts from these games are excellent, and EM2 made a good call about likoping sounding like Grandiose. EM2 is making good contributions to this board now, and I for one am going to lay off of him.

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totally missed this as well. (the combo draws)
i fold the 2nd

dlpnyc21 · #6 05-07-2007, 04:06 AM

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The comments and behavior after the river bet make me want to call. Getting up and leaving, going to smoke and THEN making faces at you shows me that he wasn't comfortable enough to act cool at the table, and needed to get into a less stressful environment to get it together. "The Q didn't help me," isn't a standard comment IMO. When a good player makes a comment that you hear often from less-good players, he's usually employing some kind of fake (or double-fake). But a non-standard comment is less likely to be used this way, and at face value, he seems to be trying to say subtly that he's not bluffing. I think he is.

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this is exactly what he wants people to think...

fatgirl_lover · #7 05-07-2007, 04:18 AM

hey in hand 1 i think you call the river. given that he calls preflop with any 2 cards, i think he is just using a scary board to raise big. hand 2 i'd fold river, also the call preflop is a big big mistake not a little one.

dlpnyc21 · #8 05-07-2007, 04:50 AM

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hey in hand 1 i think you call the river. given that he calls preflop with any 2 cards, i think he is just using a scary board to raise big. hand 2 i'd fold river, also the call preflop is a big big mistake not a little one.

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i agree...in retrospect...the call preflop is awful. a few of the people i talk through hands whose opinions i respected most said that even in a 3 handed deepstack game it's a huge leak...

fatgirl_lover · #9 05-07-2007, 01:01 PM

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hey in hand 1 i think you call the river. given that he calls preflop with any 2 cards, i think he is just using a scary board to raise big. hand 2 i'd fold river, also the call preflop is a big big mistake not a little one.

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i agree...in retrospect...the call preflop is awful. a few of the people i talk through hands whose opinions i respected most said that even in a 3 handed deepstack game it's a huge leak...

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unless the opponent is playing signifncantly bad, and OOP i'd say that the fact that you are deepstack makes 86o call worse of a call if anything. btw please don't forget to post results in the thread b

Daut44 · #10 05-05-2007, 08:08 PM

call the first

decent chance youre behind in the first one, but he could easily have a worse 3 and is vbetting (you say he likes to make thin vbets). i would believe him that the Q didnt hit him. i think he puts you on something like AQ that raised his weak looking bet and is trying to get a lot of value on the river, so he is in turn trying to get big value out of his hand. i dont think hes lying that the queen didnt help him, and it seems like he has a 3 more than a boat because he would probably repop pre or fold more often than not with the possible boat hands.

2nd hand with the way he plays its very tough, but i put him squarely on QQ and not a flush. i suppose this type of player can float you twice and would definitely do it unpredictably, so i think calling is eh, but folding is probably better based on the fact that he acted a bit on the turn, called the flop c/r and made a solid, callable river bet when it doesnt seem like he would have the flush.