Wal-Mart

[TwoOuter]

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It is an odd contradiction that every one seems to hate the companies for driving out business, but every abandons the small businesses for the name brand.

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Actually I'm less concerned with their effect on small businesses than with their treatment of their employees, suppliers and the environment.

This might be of interest:

http://www.walmartmovie.com/facts.php

[Conspire]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is an odd contradiction that every one seems to hate the companies for driving out business, but every abandons the small businesses for the name brand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I'm less concerned with their effect on small businesses than with their treatment of their employees, suppliers and the environment.

This might be of interest:

http://www.walmartmovie.com/facts.php

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TwoOuter that is a goodpage, and the movie that they are selling is the one (I think its the one) that I posted in my OP that can be streamed for free.

[daveT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It is an odd contradiction that every one seems to hate the companies for driving out business, but every abandons the small businesses for the name brand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I'm less concerned with their effect on small businesses than with their treatment of their employees, suppliers and the environment.

This might be of interest:

http://www.walmartmovie.com/facts.php

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I still don't comprehend how Wal Mart treats it's American employees any different than any other minimum wage job. An evil corporation has a full 20% of it's employees on health care. I know of several corporations that can't brag those kind of numbers.

[Borodog]

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The thinking behind unions are obsolete. They were created at a time of dangerous working conditions. At a time when minimum wages where not enforced, a time of child labor.

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All of this is total, complete, 100% bunk. Pure economic sophistry to protect union workers at the expense of consumers and non-union workers. Capitalism improves working conditions. Capitalism increases wages (of which working conditions are a part, in fact). And capitalism eventually eliminates the need for child labor while still providing it when the alternatives for children is short, brutal, nasty lives of crime, prostitution, or back-breaking subsistence farming. Why did people flee the countryside in their millions to flock to the factories if the factories were so horrible compared to what they were leaving? The factories during the industrial revolution were vastly superior to the alternatives, as demonstrated by the preferences of the workers.

Union leaders concoct stories of "exploitation" to throw their competition, including minorities, women, children, the elderly, etc. out of work. What those less productive people who still desperately needed the work had to compete with was the compensating differential of lower wages. So unions attack them via economic sophistry and demagoguery to throw them out of work and into poverty.

Capitalism improves working conditions because you have to pay workers a risk premium to work in dangerous or otherwise unattractive environments. Why do Alaskan King Crab fisherman make so much money? Because it's brutal, nasty dangerous work, and the market ups their wages so they can do it. Any business owner who provides an unsafe environment in an industry that is not unavoidably, naturally dangerous must pay for it in wages to attract workers that his safer competitors don't have to pay. Thus there is a direct financial incentive to make workplaces safer, and in fact that's what has been the trend throughout modern history, up until the advent of OSHA. With the advent of OSHA, the number of workplace injuries, which had been declining steadily for as long as anyone had kept statistics, suddenly flattened. Why? Because employers no longer sunk their investment into making workplaces safer; rather they sunk their investment into complying with loony bureaucratic regulations. The regulations displaced workplace safety and investment and innovation with ridiculous rules that don't make anyone safer, just less efficient.

Capitalism raises wages because wages tend to equal a worker's marginal revenue product. Period. End of story. Pay workers more than their marginal revenue product and you go broke. Pay them less and there is a profit opportunity available for another capitalist to exploit by bidding that worker away from you for slightly more, and another from him, and another from him, until the wage nears the marginal revenue product (to within the transaction costs of looking for a new job and moving, which is very low these days). To make more money, the capitalist must make his labor more productive. He does this either by investing in training or investing in capital equipment, tools and machinery. And if he doesn't raise wages to keep pace with the increased productivity, somebody bids that worker away. There are always vastly more jobs than there are workers, and competition amongst employers is fierce. An entire industry exists to exploit the arbitrage opportunity represented by employees not being paid their marginal revenue product. Monster.com and innumerable competitors, headhunting firms, etc.

[JayTee]

It looks like a lot of people hate Walmart. I guess we can expect them to go out of business soon. Do Walmart haters ever stop to think how Walmart got as large as it is? It's because people VOLUNTARILY shop there. Why block Walmart from moving into a town. If the town people truly don't want Walmart then they won't shop there. If I hated Walmart I would let them build their store just so I could laugh as they went broke from lack of customers.

As for "mom and pop" shops. The reason that they go out of business is because people VOLUNTARILY don't shop there. Local economies are important. The most important being the most local, your bank account. To purchase items at a higher cost from a small business is engaging in charity, which is fine, but don't demean others for not engaging in that charity. Especially those who can't afford to do so.

Walmart provides the essentials of life for poor families at lower costs. This frees up money for them to spend on things that they otherwise wouldn't be able to. In other words, it increases their wealth by boosting the purchasing power of their money.

Capitalism isn't a dirty word. It gives you the right to vote daily with every transaction you make, not just every 4 years. If you dislike Walmart then vote them out by not shopping there. That I can respect. Unfortunately most of the bashers don't want to lead by example. You are weak individuals who deserve no respect.

[daveT]

uh, ok.

Borodog. I understand in history that yes, people cleared out of their farms for the factories. This shouldn't be a shock because, even to this day, farming is mostly a losing money proposition. Besides, a factory puts up a promise of a great future, and plenty of idiots will go. Look at the Military for a modern example. They go to poor schools and promise a free education.

The factories at first used children as young as 6 years old. The conditions where highly dangerous, very unsanitary, and yes, the pay sucked.

Unions were created not as you see them today, but large groups of workers demanded higher pay, or they all threatened to quit. They figured out with this new-found power that they didn't have to tolerate their children coming home with missing fingers.

You essentially proved my point. People now recognize that there is what's called "Federal Minimum Wage." What people still don't recognize is that there is a such thing as a living wage. Blaming Wal Mart, specifically, is irresponsible for peoples ignorance and stupidity. That people are willing to work for minimum wages and pay a union is retarded at best.

[TwoOuter]

Conspire,

Thanks for posting the link to the movie. It's worth seeing.

DaveT,

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I still don't comprehend how Wal Mart treats it's American employees any different than any other minimum wage job.

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I think it's the scale of their corporate reach that troubles some people. As the largest private employer in the U.S., their policies have a huge impact.

In my opinion they are symbolic of the worst of capitalism- cutting corners and exploiting their power in the name of profits.

[Conspire]

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Unfortunately most of the bashers don't want to lead by example. You are weak individuals who deserve no respect.

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QFT.

This is a problem with many of our problems in america. We do not have leaders who can go that extra step. I have stated that I do not go to wal-mart and I do not agree with their tactics. It does not mean that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I have the freedom to make the choices that I do and so does everyone else, I of course would be happier if everyone saw things my way, communism does not work and there is no way that I am always 100% right. We all have our own opinions based on how we grew up, education, surroundings, the list goes on. I am way too young to even begin to understand how our economy truly works. Even if there is a problem, the numbers wal-mart puts up is way too large for them to worry about the haters.

[Borodog]

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In my opinion they are symbolic of the worst of capitalism- cutting corners and exploiting their power in the name of profits.

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A question. What, exactly, does profit represent to you?

[JayTee]

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Unfortunately most of the bashers don't want to lead by example. You are weak individuals who deserve no respect.

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QFT.

This is a problem with many of our problems in america. We do not have leaders who can go that extra step. I have stated that I do not go to wal-mart and I do not agree with their tactics. It does not mean that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I have the freedom to make the choices that I do and so does everyone else, I of course would be happier if everyone saw things my way, communism does not work and there is no way that I am always 100% right. We all have our own opinions based on how we grew up, education, surroundings, the list goes on. I am way too young to even begin to understand how our economy truly works. Even if there is a problem, the numbers wal-mart puts up is way too large for them to worry about the haters.

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They don't worry about the haters because they keep shopping there. I think most people who dislike Walmart do so for purely emotional reasons or at least a line of reasoning that they haven't taken to its logical conclusion. A lot of people see a huge company that makes a ton of money and assume that that's a bad thing. When I see a huge company that makes a ton of money, not derived from taxation or a significant amount of government regulation, I think "there's a company that is supplying something that people want."