Official Full Tilt Poker Response to Bot Thread

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
even Party Poker does a better job than this...

how embarrassing for FT

FT has probably just lost all credibility, I just hope the business they lose is substantial enough for them to revisit their policies, but probalby not... it never is

[/ QUOTE ]

They must be doing something right, the amount of players was above normal tonight and the 1/2NL fishier than ever. Probably all the 2+2 wannabees that are looking for an edge while both the bots and the 2+2 sharks are away.

FT's way of handling this situation is no different to any other site.
The main problem with these sites is that employees are at the best mediocre poker players and the financial aspect of the situation weights much more in their eyes than the integrity of the site as seen by a small group of pros.
We are talking 80/100K a month in rake generated by 4 accounts and while they are obviously forced to say that they take the matter very seriously, they most certainly don't want to lose the accounts bussiness.

It is very likely that those accounts will be offered a name change, thus creating the illusion that they willingly stopped playing.

If we, at 2+2, can't find them at the tables, it will be difficult to keep bitching about them.
Even if we are now looking for them under the new names, it will take months of datamining before we can come up with some stats and we'll never be able to prove that we are dealing with the same bots/accounts/or whatever we want to call them.

Whatever we like it or not, FT is a bussiness and it's first priority is profit.

[ChicagoRy]

In all honesty we don't pay you what should amount to be well over a hundred million dollars in profit from rake this year for nothing. You are paid well to handle this type of stuff FTP. If you can't do it surely you can hire somebody who can. "We don't know if they are humans or bots" after 2 months from an extremely profitable company doesn't seem to be very good.

And to all those that say we are "lucky" to have FTP reps on this board... Seriously. Most companies that depend so much on repeated business and interaction of their customers have 24 hour phone support lines, not to mention people that monitor popular/influential outlets. 2+2 forums would very much so qualify as one of these popular/influential outlets.

FTP Doug and Sean seem to interact well with players and represent their site in a good manner for the most part. For that I am thankful as a player, but to say it is more of our loss if major sites don't represent themselves than it is their loss, I feel that is wrong.

This situation doesn't seem to have been handled very satisfactory at all to me, all things considered.

[Our House]

[ QUOTE ]
I think poker sites should seriously consider banning PT and it's equivalents. Without a way of tracking and collecting data, it's impossible for bots to operate. Also this would make it much easier to detect people who are cheating since they'll have to be tracking statistics somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. How completely backwards.

The "bots" in this case do NOT require PokerTracker in order to operate. They play a set strategy that doesn't ever deviate to account for opponents.

As a matter of fact, it's US who need PokerTracker to find them out.

[SukitTrebek]

Yikes. We all knew that a non-substantive response was likely, but that was pretty bad after all of what's already transpired. Hopefully, you'll be at least a little more forthcoming in the future.

I wasn't going to post too many details from the emails I traded with FT, but because of this lack of response by FT it seems necessary. I realize you're not going to answer many of these questions but I'll ask anyways.

After I saw the bots reappear and sent an email that read like the end of my OP, your representative replied indicating that there are many different actions that FT can take when an investigation is completed. That if complete guilt can't be shown, restrictions are placed on the accounts or continued monitoring takes place. In your OP, you acted as if the accounts were completely exonerated after a lack of proof was found. You don't have to go into detail about whatever double-secret-probation you placed the accounts on. But please answer directly, did you completely exonerate the accounts or did you take some level of action?

In justifying how the bots were likely human grinders, your rep alluded to how they had a significant chat history. This seems pretty frightening. Can you confirm or deny that this was used as evidence that they weren't bots?

Did you use the fact that most days one tournament was played in addition to the 16 or so cash game tables as proof it wasn't a bot?

Why have I been thanked over and over and over for my help, if I have misunderstood the situation? FTPDoug even thanked me for my vigilance in posting the OP. Seems pretty weird to thank someone who created a firestorm of negative publicity if you believe that they've misunderstood the situation?

In my original email, I offered to help in any way I could, discussing the bots' tendencies or whatever. No one ever took me up on it. Do you think that was a mistake?

Did you come up with an explanation why human grinders would get up from the tables when I logged in? Did you look at timestamps to confirm this did or didn't happen?

In the emails, your rep would refer to the stat picture I sent itself as a piece of evidence. I assumed that upon beginning the investigation you would have created your own versions of the stat pictures with access to all hand histories. Thus you'd have created stat summaries using 300-500k hand samples for each player. Can you please confirm that you have the ability to do this? It won't be giving away any secrets, we all assume (hope) you can.

Hopefully, you'll at least discuss hypotheticals. Hypothetically, if you had concrete proof that players were using a computerized decision making system with humans inputting the actions, was this allowed previously? Is it allowed in the future? Have any policies changed on what players are or are not allowed to do?

Hypothetically, if you were to have hand samples of hundreds of thousand of hands for several players, is there any level of precision with which the convergence of the stats would by itself be enough proof that robotic decision making is being made?

This is just one guy's opinion, but my impression from the emails was that your investigation was indeed less detailed than my OP. It seems that you very likely did think they were bots, but did not have the level of sophistication at poker to prove it (even with access to all kinds of info, hh's, timestamps, whatever). You then placed some kind of vague restriction on the accounts, my post erupted, you realize you've made a mistake, and are now hoping that conclusive proof comes out in the main thread. Thus allowing you to finally reverse your decision and move on. Am I close?

[ipitythefool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think poker sites should seriously consider banning PT and it's equivalents. Without a way of tracking and collecting data, it's impossible for bots to operate. Also this would make it much easier to detect people who are cheating since they'll have to be tracking statistics somehow.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. How completely backwards.

The "bots" in this case do NOT require PokerTracker in order to operate. They play a set strategy that doesn't ever deviate to account for opponents.

As a matter of fact, it's US who need PokerTracker to find them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

They never would have been discovered if it wasn't for PT data. FTP surely wasn't looking for them. Banning PT is a horrible idea because it gives them complete freedom to operate without the scrutiny of other players. This is also why Stars would need to open up to data mining before I'll completely trust playing there.

[BigF]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
even Party Poker does a better job than this...

how embarrassing for FT

FT has probably just lost all credibility, I just hope the business they lose is substantial enough for them to revisit their policies, but probalby not... it never is

[/ QUOTE ]

They must be doing something right, the amount of players was above normal tonight and the 1/2NL fishier than ever. Probably all the 2+2 wannabees that are looking for an edge while both the bots and the 2+2 sharks are away.

FT's way of handling this situation is no different to any other site.
The main problem with these sites is that employees are at the best mediocre poker players and the financial aspect of the situation weights much more in their eyes than the integrity of the site as seen by a small group of pros.
We are talking 80/100K a month in rake generated by 4 accounts and while they are obviously forced to say that they take the matter very seriously, they most certainly don't want to lose the accounts bussiness.

It is very likely that those accounts will be offered a name change, thus creating the illusion that they willingly stopped playing.

If we, at 2+2, can't find them at the tables, it will be difficult to keep bitching about them.
Even if we are now looking for them under the new names, it will take months of datamining before we can come up with some stats and we'll never be able to prove that we are dealing with the same bots/accounts/or whatever we want to call them.

Whatever we like it or not, FT is a bussiness and it's first priority is profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if FTP offers to change their screen names every month for them. That way, we will never be able to spot them again.

Ah, the conspiracy theory never ends.

[Viscant]

Yes but if any electronic aid was considered cheating and cause for account ban/funds seizing, it would be way way easier for the sites to prove who is cheating and who isn't just through spyware, right?

[_dave_]

[ QUOTE ]

Hypothetically, if you had concrete proof that players were using a computerized decision making system with humans inputting the actions, was this allowed previously?


[/ QUOTE ]

SukitTrebek,

not saying anything particuarly about FTP (I can't find a FAQ page to confirm/deny) but according to Stars this is explicitly allowed, and according to Party this is not explicitly disallowed. I Imagine FTP is similar.

If there is a human involved in executing the decision, not only a bot, no problem. Banned software "BOTS" only occurs when a human cannot override the advice of advisory softwares.

I posted links to policy pages in the massive thread, can post them here if need be.


dave.

[SukitTrebek]

I saw your other post in the main thread and definitely respect what you have to say. I know Stars allows multiple players to a hand, but I find it incredibly hard to believe robotic assistance in decision making is allowed anywhere (I'll have to find those links). Still, I hope FTPSean will at least clarify their position in this thread.

[RiverMustelid]

I'm afraid this whole situation is very unsatisfactory. As a c50k a month hand player with accounts at multiple sites, I will certainly look to migrate business elsewhere.

I think the key issues are:
1) The concept of allowing multiple users at one location is not ethical in my opinion. This may not be covered by the terms and conditions, and therefore can't be acted on, but this is merely an argument for updating terms and conditions.
2) Almost everyone believes there is a degree of decision automation here which goes beyond basic charts. The statistics are too similar across all 3 streets. There is debate about the degree of this automation. Again your terms & conditions do not appear tight enough - apparently you operate to a binary is a bot/isn't a bot definition.
3) I would agree that to confiscate funds you need evidence beyond reasonable doubt. But there is a lot of circumstantial evidence here, which suggests on the balance of probabilities these guys are botting. In my opinion this is enough to ban accounts and return funds.

The simple question to ask is whether if you convened a meeting of all your customers whether they would approve or disapprove of the outlined operation (even that agreed by DLNUT as fact). The answer would overwhelmingly, in my opinion, be that they would be disgusted by such practices.

I will be extremely angry to face any of these players again (yes, I have lost a stack to Full_Tilting), irrespective of my views of their capabilities.

Full Tilt faces a choice. It can seek to sweep the inevitable continued issue of bots under the carpet, with complicit acceptance from winning players, until their profits are eroded away. This has two issues 1) Customers do have the ability to switch away to other sites, and integrity can be a point of competitive advantage) 2) It gives your business a limited lifespan before profits are competed away on your bot infested tables

Alternatively you can work with your core customer base (yes, here is a good place to start) to tackle the issue head on.

Currently, your stance is clearly that of see no evil hear no evil. Don't underestimate the power of viral marketing in your business. If your business loses momentum it will not recover. I for one would be a part of that negative publicity generation, unless you up your game.