200-400 Hand.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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what he's saying is some of you are fos. schneids and others say easy call and then suddenly everyone's saying "easy call".

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schneids never said the call was easy.

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It depends on what you mean by "easy".

For example, I don't think the EV of this call is that hard to estimate. It's probably somewhere between +0.05 BB and +0.15 BB. So the call is certainly thin, but it the decision call is (IMO) clear.

On the other hand, something like flat calling with KK before the flop. The dynamics are much harder to estimate there, and the EV of that play could conceivably be -0.50 BB, or +0.20 BB. So that's arguably a more difficult decision.

[The Funky Llama]

how could the ev of coldcalling KK be negative?

[sweetjazz]

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how could the ev of coldcalling KK be negative?

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I think he means relative to raising.

[The Bryce]

It's not easy because there's any large gain involved, it's easy because it's a clear-cut mathematical problem with few human variables.

[Lestat]

Reads are always nice, but this one is all math. If you help on the turn, it won't really matter much what you're against. You'll either have odds to continue or you won't.

Btw- Closing the action, I'd call the flop every time.

[mike l.]

very sharp point. i like learning.

[ahnuld]

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You have to call.

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I clearly dont get limit.

[Schneids]

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You have to call.

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I clearly dont get limit.

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From a mathematical standpoint your backdoor draws make it +EV. Anytime a decision is close and you're on the flop you should lean towards the non folding option if you're closing action on the flop, especially when there's multiple people in. Multiple people in means increased chance you'll get two looks for the price of one because more hands check behind on the turn.

As a final point, especially against smart aggressive opponents, they'll begin to notice when extra PF action makes you quickly give up when you brick. I know blind stealing dynamics are a little different, but there was a time when the MaxLager name would 4-bet me outta the BB with anything playable if I 3-bet from the SB vs a steal raise. This means hands like J8s, 87s, etc. I am pretty sure he was doing it because I was simply check/folding too much postflop if the flop didn't hit me square in the face, and if you can get someone to put in 4SBs and then crumble like that, you should every time.

Anyway, more to this hand, your pair outs are good more often than you'd think, this isn't a $2/4 game where someone's open 4-bet means KK or AA.

[baronzeus]

LOL maxlager owns u

he > you

[ahnuld]

Thanks for the explanation, but when you say that button will check behind more on the turn, is that because against 2 calls he is more likely to be up against a hand and thus he wont bother bluffing nearly as much if he only got one caller? How often in limit is nobody going to have a pair in this spot? What should davids line be on the flop then if he held 88?