New Fight Question

[MuresanForMVP]

not when the only discipline they have learned involves the utilization of hands only

[Smasharoo]

not when the only discipline they have learned involves the utilization of hands only


Um, right. I hope it's at least warm in the UFC echo chamber.

Let me repeat what I posted before, the idea that UFC fighters are the best fighters, and in top physical shape, but just for some reason all just couldn't get the hang of boxing...is very silly indeed.

The best boxers get paid more because they are better fighters. 100 times more. It's not really debatable is it? If UFC guys could be world class boxers instead they'd be absolutely insane not to be. They can't, because, surprise surprise, they aren't as tough, strong coordinated, whatever.

/shrug. Again, not sure what is hard to understand. Money is a simple standard we can all agree on, isn't it? I mean it's not like a talented white fighter would have any trouble getting chances, now is it?

[ZeTurd]

As someone who has watched a lot of boxing, as well as a lot of UFC fights, I gotta say I'm somewhat sympathetic to Smash here, if not exactly in full agreement.

The boxers have definitely been underrated in this thread.

Facts:
- The best boxer will be a better athlete than the best UFC fighter
- The best boxer will have a serious advantage over the best UFC fighter standing up; assuming the boxer is quick enough on his feet to avoid being crippled by kicks.
- Some people seem to think that it's a certainty that the UFC fighter will be able to take the fight to ground. Uh, as someone who has seen a fair share of UFC fights that's not necessarily true. A quick boxer with a minimum of knowledge about avoiding takedowns may very well be able to stay up long enough to land that one punch that is necessary to send the UFC'er into a coma.

[Steel_Pots]

[ QUOTE ]

- Some people seem to think that it's a certainty that the UFC fighter will be able to take the fight to ground. Uh, as someone who has seen a fair share of UFC fights that's not necessarily true. A quick boxer with a minimum of knowledge about avoiding takedowns may very well be able to stay up long enough to land that one punch that is necessary to send the UFC'er into a coma.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded. Do you really think it takes a minimal amount of skill to avoid a take-down by a world-class grappler? It would take a fighter skilled in many fields to be the likely winner. A boxer would be handily dismantled by a well-rounded UFC/Pride fighter.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
Smasharoo,

You've proved your lack of understanding here.

Have you ever seen a former All-American wrestler take on a State Champ of equal weight? I have. The State Champ got clobbered. Have you seen a 135 pound All American take on a 215 pound State Champ? I've seen that too. Weight is not that big of an issue when you are facing an overwhelming skill disadvantage.

Even if the boxer is remotely aware of grappling he won't be skilled enough to keep from getting his butt handed to him when it comes to it. The boxer may be quicker with faster reflexes but that won't help him when he is put into a situation that he isn't trained to handle.

It would be easy to stay out of range of his punches while kicking his legs. The reach differential is large enough that it can be done. A few solid kicks to the knee and his going to lose a lot of his punching power. A few more and he'll lose his speed. A few more and he'll barely be able to stand up. At that point it's just a matter of getting him on the ground and finishing the job.

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No reason to assume a boxer would just sit back and let his legs be kicked. My assumption is he would not like that. Are we to assume the boxer has neither natural nor incredibly highly trained reflexes? Pretty sucky boxer.

Boxers close the gap all the time. It's part of boxing.

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't buy into any particular demographic. I don't even particularly like the UFC, but you're just so blind on this matter.

Uh huh. I guess you just magically arrived at the exact incorrect oppinion that their carefully designed marketing would like you to. Really though, you are a unique snowflake, who is a free thinker and deals with the world on his own terms. You are Lobo. You ride alone.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a big fan of this kind of internet sniping, but this was pretty funny.

[kdotsky]

[ QUOTE ]

Let me repeat what I posted before, the idea that UFC fighters are the best fighters, and in top physical shape, but just for some reason all just couldn't get the hang of boxing...is very silly indeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please try to understand this: the skill sets for the two different sports is very different. Regardless of what you see on TV, the fundamentals of MMA is grappling.

Ok, so say I'm not talking about a world class boxer right now. A good striker with no ground skills that tries to get into MMA will get creamed. A good grappler with no striking skills that goes into the MMA has a chance. This, on its own, is pretty much factual. It is why you see vastly more former olympic or college wrestlers in the sport than washed up boxers. Ground game is fundamental.

Your argument is relying on the fact their their skills are one and the same: fighting. Boxing has virtually zero overlap with the most important part of real fighting: grappling.

Just as a marathon runner is built differently than a sprinter, a UFC fighter is much different than a boxer. They are built more like traditional wrestlers. It's not just coincidence that most of them have low centers of gravity. This is also why they don't "become boxers if they are so good". You're right, they can't. It's because they're different types of athletes. They're optimized for a sport that is closer to real fighting.

[ QUOTE ]

The best boxers get paid more because they are better fighters. 100 times more. It's not really debatable is it?


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They are not better fighters, they are better boxers (by far). Understand, again, that ground game has been shown again and again to be paramount.

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If UFC guys could be world class boxers instead they'd be absolutely insane not to be. They can't, because, surprise surprise, they aren't as tough, strong coordinated, whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone disagrees with this statement. We all get your point, and you're right. What you're failing to see is that UFC is not some point on the "fighting spectrum" below boxing. It's vastly different. Fighting on the ground is not just rolling around. In addition, as someone else pointed out, a world class wrestler can take down a state champ wrestler no problem -- and the state champ trains exclusively in defending this type of deal. An untrained boxer would not stand a chance at avoiding takedown.

[ QUOTE ]

/shrug. Again, not sure what is hard to understand. Money is a simple standard we can all agree on, isn't it? I mean it's not like a talented white fighter would have any trouble getting chances, now is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're just repeating the same point over and over again. Again, nobody disagrees that money draws the best talent. But it's drawing talent to boxing, not necessarily fighting. Why not actually read what people are saying and at least try to understand it.

And you're right that there is the "fad" and marketing aspect to UFC, and most people are commenting based on what they see on Spike TV. However, there are a few people in this thread that do have a deep understanding of the full breadth of what is being discussed (yes, long before SpikeTV even started).

Be a little more open minded. You might actually learn something.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
If UFC guys could be world class boxers instead they'd be absolutely insane not to be.

[/ QUOTE ]
The thing is, you don't have to be a world class boxer to be the best fighter. You have to be the person who can best adapt. The simple truth is that the best MMA fighter will likely be the one who can adapt better because of his training. The boxer has very little to no training in defending against takedowns, submissions, or kicks. And it's not very likely that he'll take out the MMA fighter coming in on a shoot because there are ways to protect yourself when you shoot so you don't get clobbered.

Also, I say that the boxer being in better overall conditioning does not help him much because this type of fight isn't going to be a 10 round fight.

[Blarg]

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[ QUOTE ]
Let's not pretend you can't strike from the ground, though.
A friend of mine (not a UFC champion, but a high school wrestler) tackled me from behind and tried to get me in a headlock, and I just stuck my finger in his traychea, and he was done. The eyes work, too. The point not being that the UFC couldn't choke the other guys out, just that it's not automatic.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is true and I had considered it. Although I think that should someone attain a chokehold I think it might quickly change to trying to crush a windpipe or snap a neck rather than simply choke the opponent out.

As far as the strikes to the windpipe go I think these would be hard to land against a fighter skilled at defending himself. Of course I have no evidence to support this since I've never seen one of these strikes attempted in competition or otherwise.

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Just a note on vital areas -- they don't have to be struck. Some can be scratched, pinched, torn at, whatever. Works fine just the same.

Not saying vital areas are all there is to fighting, by far. But, it seems in these discussions people are so often either saying they'll never be hit or always be hit, or that nobody ever really trains to hit them anyway, or that they must be hit just right or they're safe. None of those things are true.

[BCPVP]

[ QUOTE ]
- The best boxer will be a better athlete than the best UFC fighter

[/ QUOTE ]
This doesn't make nearly as much difference as the pro-boxing crowd here thinks. If you look at the first UFC, you'll see a fight between Royce Gracie and Ken Shamrock. You'll notice that Ken is ripped and Royce is pretty average and skinny. Royce choked out Ken very quickly and Ken actually knew ground fighting.

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A quick boxer with a minimum of knowledge about avoiding takedowns may very well be able to stay up long enough to land that one punch that is necessary to send the UFC'er into a coma.

[/ QUOTE ]
You really think a "minimum of knowledge about avoiding takedowns" is good enough to stop the best MMA fighter in the world? And "knowing" is not good enough. Unless you practice it, it's useless.