Bots in PartyPoker's 6-max Limit games?

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'll play this game.
post the link to the t&c that you'd use in your complaint.

ray bornert

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is just one example.

http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/terms_conditions/

Relevant portions:
"you agree not to use any AI Software and/or any such programs. By accepting our terms and conditions you expressly consent to abide by our Unfair Advantage Policy."

Link to Unfair Advantage Policy

[/ QUOTE ]

i'll play this game:

[ QUOTE ]

26. Notices.
If you have any dispute with regard to any outcome in the Games or any other activity, you must submit your complaint to the Company in writing within fourteen (14) days of the incident by email to info@partyaccount.com. You may also submit notices to us in writing at: Player Claims, WPC Productions Limited, Suite 711, Block 7, Europort. Any notice we give to you (save as otherwise set out herein) will be sent to the email address that you provided when you registered your Account. It is your responsibility to give us notice of any changes to this address through the 'Change Email' facility in our Software and regularly check your email account for emails from the Company.

27. Governing Law.

This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of Gibraltar without giving effect to conflicts of law principles. You irrevocably agree to submit, for the benefit of the Company, to the exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Gibraltar for settlement of any disputes or matters arising out of or concerning this Agreement or its enforceability. If any part of this Agreement is found to be invalid, illegal or unenforceable in any respect, it will not affect the validity of the remainder of the Agreement, which shall remain valid and enforceable according to its terms.

[/ QUOTE ]

if your complaint is about a player then your recourse is to complain to party directly.

if your complaint is about party then your recourse is to complain to gibraltar.

party is not dumb. they are well aware that there are a lot
of players out there that will deposit based on this t&c.
they covered their legal bases.
they are good ostrich farmers.

now if this was a las vegas strip casino and the honest
holdem t&c (with the house bots clause and no encryption)
certified by the gaming control board, then you'd have very
effective recourse with the gcb for both types of complaints.

you could in theory have recourse all the way to the u.s.
supreme court if the nature of the case warranted that type
of attention.

ray bornert

[ihardlyknowher]

Read my first post. My complaint is against you for participating in and organizing an ongoing criminal enterprise that allows its members (i.e. the botters) to commit wire fraud. You had better hire a lawyer.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
Read my first post. My complaint is against you for participating in and organizing an ongoing criminal enterprise that allows its members (i.e. the botters) to commit wire fraud. You had better hire a lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

and you're going to file this complaint in what jurisdiction?

on behalf of plaintiffs that live in what jurisdiction?

i'll play this game.

am i correct in understanding that you're saying that if
a human presses a raise button it's not wire fraud but if
an autoplayer does then it is wire fraud?

ray

[gone.flying]

count me in for a donation - see my earlier posts re discovery - ray has probably made enough $ from his little enterprise to be less than judgement proof

Rasy clearly does not understand the meaning of the words 'conspiracy' incitement, etc

I'd respectfully suggest Georgia is a good place to start the process of rehabilitating Ray's thinking per:

WINHOLDEM.NET

Registration Service Provided By: Dragon Networks
Contact: hostmaster@dragon.com
Visit: http://www.regest.com

Domain name: WINHOLDEM.NET

Registrant Contact:
NA
HixoxiH Software (hostmaster@dragon.com)
+1.7707367890
Fax:
4143 Red Laurel Way
Snellville, GA 30039
US

Administrative Contact:
NA
Ray E Bornert II (hostmaster@dragon.com)
+1.7707367870
Fax: +1.7707368790
4143 Red Laurel Way
Snellville, GA 30039
US

Technical Contact:
Dragon Networks
Dragon Hostmaster (hostmaster@dragon.com)
+1.7709088920
Fax: +1.7709088921
4987 Lavista Road
Suite 4
Tucker, GA 30084
US

While we're at it, might as well put dragon.com on notice to preserve and keep safe all logfiles relating to winholdem.net - could provide a wealth of VERY useful info

[RayBornert]

so if i understand this correctly you're going to attempt
to get the state of georgia to help you police the terms
and conditions for an online poker site in gibraltar due
to the fact that you're not satisfied with the ability of
party poker to give you what you want?

you're practically making my point for me.

ray

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read my first post. My complaint is against you for participating in and organizing an ongoing criminal enterprise that allows its members (i.e. the botters) to commit wire fraud. You had better hire a lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

and you're going to file this complaint in what jurisdiction?

on behalf of plaintiffs that live in what jurisdiction?

i'll play this game.

am i correct in understanding that you're saying that if
a human presses a raise button it's not wire fraud but if
an autoplayer does then it is wire fraud?

ray

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point, I am uncertain what jurisdiction will be the best, but I am sure we will have many options since your criminal enterprise has probably defrauded people in all 50 states.

In terms of what consitutes wire fraud, it has nothing to do with whether a computer or person presses the button. When people sit down to play at an online poker table with typical T&C, they are representing that they agree not to use a bot, collude, etc. The fact that your customers have no intention of following the T&C is what makes their conduct fraudulent. If two humans sat down with a plan to collude and did so, they would be committing wire fraud also. The fact that you are at the center of an ongoing criminal enterprise that facilitates these multiple acts of wire fraud is what makes you liable under the federal RICO statutes, which do provide for treble damages by the way.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Read my first post. My complaint is against you for participating in and organizing an ongoing criminal enterprise that allows its members (i.e. the botters) to commit wire fraud. You had better hire a lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

and you're going to file this complaint in what jurisdiction?

on behalf of plaintiffs that live in what jurisdiction?

i'll play this game.

am i correct in understanding that you're saying that if
a human presses a raise button it's not wire fraud but if
an autoplayer does then it is wire fraud?

ray

[/ QUOTE ]

At this point, I am uncertain what jurisdiction will be the best, but I am sure we will have many options since your criminal enterprise has probably defrauded people in all 50 states.

In terms of what consitutes wire fraud, it has nothing to do with whether a computer or person presses the button. When people sit down to play at an online poker table with typical T&C, they are representing that they agree not to use a bot, collude, etc. The fact that your customers have no intention of following the T&C is what makes their conduct fraudulent. If two humans sat down with a plan to collude and did so, they would be committing wire fraud also. The fact that you are at the center of an ongoing criminal enterprise that facilitates these multiple acts of wire fraud is what makes you liable under the federal RICO statutes, which do provide for treble damages by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

how 'bout a class action suit against a site for defrauding
customers by warranting that the site is secure against
tracking, botting, teaming. how do you think the average
online player feels when they learn this truth? i talk
with these people every day dude. and let me tell you they
are seriously pissed. they feel lied to.

the site drew first blood by telling lies.
if they had all begun with the honest holdem
t&c then we wouldn't be having this conversation
would we?

ray bornert

[Phil153]

No, he's going after because he doesn't like you. There are many of us who feel that way.

You don't have a point Ray. Everyone agress it's impossible to catch 100% of bots before they start playing. No one agrees that this should mean we stop trying. You have very poor thinking skills to claim that the second follows from the first.

An anology: You can't catch 100% of thieves either. By your reasoning, society should allow theft, and anyone who disagrees has their head in the sand.

The day you experience your own ethical philosophy in action should be fun.

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
No, he's going after because he doesn't like you. There are many of us who feel that way.

You don't have a point Ray. Everyone agress it's impossible to catch 100% of bots before they start playing. No one agrees that this should mean we stop trying. You have very poor thinking skills to claim that the second follows from the first.

An anology: You can't catch 100% of thieves either. By your reasoning, society should allow theft, and anyone who disagrees has their head in the sand.

The day you experience your own ethical philosophy in action should be fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

tracking, botting or teaming are not the same thing as a
real world thief. the fact that you see tracking botting
and teaming as things that steal from you indicates that
you dont understand all of the issues - especially the
cases where these things actually can be negative ev.

if you're arguing from a point of view where you see these
things as always postive large edge then you're misinformed.

ray bornert.

[5thStreetHog]

Your right for once Ray,its not the same as real world theft.Its a hell of alot more gutless,which im sure fits you perfectly.