NL Bots on Full Tilt

[DWarrior]

[ QUOTE ]
also something ive noticed from playing with these guys for many tens of thousands of hands is that they joyfully nut themselves stacking off with AA.

Now, I understand folding AA isnt something that many people like to do, but in full ring there are some VERY obvious spots to pitch the hand. None of these guys have laid down AA from what I've seen no matter how obvious it is that theyre beat from the action. You'd think a coupla fairly smart guys would figure this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you see how this has nothing to do with any of the theories so far?

Right now the predominating theory is that the bot overseer takes over post-flop, so either way this wouldn't happen. You're just criticizing their play.

[action44]

THANK GOD FOR THIS THREAD.. The fact FTP hasnt been in here says the dont give a [censored] or dont care theyre customers are upset.. I wont be back there...EVERYOTHER DAY SOMEONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT FTP.. THIS ACTUALLY IS GOOD FOR ME MAYBE PEOPLE WILL COME OVER TO STARS.. I WILL BE TELLING MY POKER NETWORK ABOUT THIS WHETHER TRUE OR NOT FTP BLOWS COME TO STARSLOLOOOLLOOLLOLOL

[ipitythefool]

lol at people saying that the numbers aren't close enough to be conclusive... they are nearly identical for every stat on every street.

as for the arguers of the 14.24 and 13.67 stats, this could easily be from the RNG dealing one bot AA-TT some small percentage more than the other over the sample. 100k is large but not large enough to smooth out all randomness in the game. These numbers are so close it's not even worth aguing about it...

[wims]

[ QUOTE ]
THANK GOD FOR THIS THREAD.. The fact FTP hasnt been in here says the dont give a [censored] or dont care theyre customers are upset.. I wont be back there...EVERYOTHER DAY SOMEONE IS COMPLAINING ABOUT FTP.. THIS ACTUALLY IS GOOD FOR ME MAYBE PEOPLE WILL COME OVER TO STARS.. I WILL BE TELLING MY POKER NETWORK ABOUT THIS WHETHER TRUE OR NOT FTP BLOWS COME TO STARSLOLOOOLLOOLLOLOL

[/ QUOTE ]This post makes no sense, why would you want the 2p2ers to move to stars? Unless of course you plan to stay at ftp or have an owner interrest in stars or something

[action44]

If this becomes common SOP for fulltilt the fishies will come...Also word of mouth travels a long way...If you were just starting to learn about poker, 2+2, ect. And read this thread would your go to fulltilt or stars? gltu @ftbotpoker.lol

[SukitTrebek]

Alright, finally caught up. I knew this thread would explode but to logon to 2p2 again and see 440 new posts in this thread shocked me.

Nation's development is quite interesting. Naturally, I don't believe it, but I'm looking forward to more being posted about it. Seriously Nation, why don't use just introduce his username and have him post?

Regarding the stats, I datamined sporadically. Often I'd have only part of all the 1/2 tables getting recorded (like on weekends). Also, full tilt would have an update or Microsoft would do an automatic update and the datamining would break. Thus, if I had to guess, I would assume the stats I posted are between 1/4 to a 1/3 of all $200nl hands played for that time period. It is definitely not a full record by any means.

For the bots reacting to my login, I wanted to clarify a bit. Some people were posting that the bots avoided my tables. That's not what happened. (I played 10-12 tables, so it's not like they could have avoided me.) Occasionally, when I logged in, all three bots would simultaneously logout. At first when I would sit down at the tables, I'd be surprised that there weren't any bots playing. Over time, I started checking the "Find a Player" immediately upon logging on, seeing they would all be playing, then all disappear as I was sitting down. Also, it's not like this happened all the time, maybe 1 out of every 10 days.

But the fact that it happened it all I thought was pretty damning. There's no reason for humans to do this. One guy could just tell the others, "Trebek's logged on" and they'd know to start watching my play. Last, because it was associated with my logon and not my sitting down at the tables, I believe it was a computer checking it.

I was going to post some further conclusive proof that the four players had to be the same player pf (pictures of their by position stats so that you can see the absurd jump from hj+1 to hj as they change from white haired old nit to crazy lag college kid running over the table). Doesn't look to be needed quite as much since nation acknowledged they're intending to play the exact same way. Maybe I'll post it at some point just so people can determine if a player who is 14/7 and they think is a bot is associated with all of this or not.

Their postflop numbers I believe show that they aren't human. They are approaching the same difficult situations (middle pair, overcards, whatever) against different opponents and coming up with the same decisions. Thousands and thousands of decisions. I wish I could show more stat-type proof of their precise similarity postflop. But because pokertracker does such a bad job of analyzing postflop, I don't know how much further info I'll be able to provide.

They did a laughably poor job adjusting to me. When I started re-exploiting them squeezing limpers, I couldn't believe they didn't tone it down, they kept doing even if I had just reraised them the previous orbit and they folded to my raise. They'd just do it again, I reraise again and they fold again. For that reason, I thought at a minimum preflop had to be on autopilot.

I'll try and think of some more instances that will show that they were making plays that human players wouldn't have done.

-Trebek

[Danieln]

I guess that story is somehwat plausible, but it sounds so contrived to me.

The amount of discipline required to play exactly the same way over thousands and thousands of hands is extraordinary. To expect that not just one person, but mutiple people are doing this and they all happen to be playing from the same IP address is really stretching it IMO.

Are these accounts ever not playing simultaneously? I mean I've played over at a friend's place before and vice versa but this guy seems to be suggesting that the only time they're playing is when they're together. If I was that into poker that I was putting in thousands of hands on a regular basis I think I'd put in some hands from the comfort of my own home on occassion, not just when I was with my friends. If these are indeed bots though it makes sense that they're always playing from the same IP address. If you had mutiple bot accounts why run just one when you can have several playing. Does none of them ever get sick or have other obligations that they might not make it to play that day?

He acknowledges that they're playing every day together and for very long hours, but he tries it to make it sound like just a group of friends "shooting the [censored]" and playing poker. I mean who really does that? Is my [censored] meter just overly sensitive or does anyone else not see multi-tabling over tons of hours every day as a leisurely activity?

Who here has multiple friends that play online poker on the same site you do, at the same time and for long hours like you do, and also at the same stakes you do but you have never played a single hand with them? Anyone? I know I'll sit on the same table of someone I know just to [censored] with them or we'll play occasionally sit at a low limit table and screw around. You know you're not colluding so you don't even think twice about it. If you were using bots though I can see why you'd make a point never to have them play at the same table to help prevent scrutiny. If these truly are a group of friends just having a good time together I'd expect them to act more like friends and maybe donk it up on a micro table or play HU on occassion. If you were a bunch of bots though, what's the point?

Also, who shares profits like that? Swapping out pieces of yourself with others in a tourney or staking someone is one thing, but for a group of people to grind it out in cash games every day and distribute the wins and losses sounds like more BS. That excuse does cover the bases though if it was just a single person swapping money around multiple accounts.

The whole tone of that guy's statement seems like he's trying to justify his "friend's" behavior. He didn't just say "Hey, I know this guy. He's my friend and I can vouch that he isn't a cheater." He instead specifically makes a point of justifying certain behaviors and mentions several times how they all comply with FullTilt's terms and conditions.

Hi, my name is JJProdigy. What's that? Multiple accounts? Ohh no, that was just my elderly grandmother that I'm teaching poker over at my house playing a large buy-in MTT on an account I created for her. . .

[action44]

Its cool your here right now just wanna say thanks...

Im gonna call u AC360 cause your keeping them honest.lol

[UATrewqaz]

Just to put it bluntly, I don't believe this story.

I get the feeling this is an initial "excuse" cover story that someone floats out when they get caught.

We've seen it before.

[DWarrior]

[ QUOTE ]
lol at people saying that the numbers aren't close enough to be conclusive... they are nearly identical for every stat on every street.

as for the arguers of the 14.24 and 13.67 stats, this could easily be from the RNG dealing one bot AA-TT some small percentage more than the other over the sample. 100k is large but not large enough to smooth out all randomness in the game. These numbers are so close it's not even worth aguing about it...

[/ QUOTE ]

My argument was that because they're not identical, it could be 2 (or more, w/e) players just learning the strategy. You can take the evidence both way.

Same goes for not playing on the same tables.

The timing out is actually evidence that it is a human player.

Someone else said "General exploitability until noticed". So...they notice when you exploit them then adjust? Hmm.

The volume of hands played does validate the argument somewhat, but it's inconclusive alone.

EDIT: "pictures of their by position stats so that you can see the absurd jump from hj+1 to hj as they change from white haired old nit to crazy lag college kid running over the table" this seems like standard nit poker.

"If these truly are a group of friends just having a good time together I'd expect them to act more like friends and maybe donk it up on a micro table or play HU on occassion. If you were a bunch of bots though, what's the point?"

But Trebek doesn't datamine micro or HU. Unless I'm missing something here, there's nothing that says this doesn't happen.

"Also, who shares profits like that? Swapping out pieces of yourself with others in a tourney or staking someone is one thing, but for a group of people to grind it out in cash games every day and distribute the wins and losses sounds like more BS."

This could be very possible...why not? Reduce the variance so that you can, indeed, play thousands of hands of breakeven poker and do the same thing over and over without going nuts.

"Who here has multiple friends that play online poker on the same site you do, at the same time and for long hours like you do, and also at the same stakes you do but you have never played a single hand with them? Anyone?"

I can see it happening. I also realize it's rare, and this would be consistent as to why we only have this one documented case of it happening.

You say you sit with your friends just to [censored] with them...but I'm sure real grinders playing hundreds of thousands of hands are over that. I have a friend who plays the same stakes, and I don't look forward to sitting at his tables, and I don't go out of my way to reduce his EV by doing stupid stuff, he probably won't even notice it's happened.

PS: I'm obviously believing everything nation has to say. Sure, we had users who had many posts and register dates of 2+ years (Grimstarr comes to mind, also the numerous transfer scammers), but I think these are exceptions. Also, nation's explanation seems to be consistent with what is happening, whereas the other people seem to tweak facts to fit the description (from above, how does a huge difference between HJ and CO make you a bot?)