Tourney donk revolt - term for cash game player equivalent?

[lacky]

This is mostly true, but oversimplified. Vareince being what it is, many cash players have "tried out" tourneys, had no success, and stayed away. And many tourney players have done the same. To get a true idea of level of success at any particular game/level takes so long who knows, especailly in something like large mtt's, where getting to "long term" takes, well, close enough to forever.

[Flight_Risk]

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Gramps,

"the cash game player with litte/no grasp on the difference between cEV and $EV, who takes on bad confrontations at inopportune times, who whiffs on the subtleties of bubble strategy and then bemoans his fate when his faulty strategy gets him knocked out/blinds him down unneccessarily, who lacks an understanding of the dynamics of big blind poker and complains it's a no-skill crapshoot while making fundamental mistake after mistake, etc., etc."

The last thing you want in your tournies is more top cash game players. No top cash game players have any trouble with the types of concepts you describe here. Many deep stack cash NL players often have a far better grasp at these concepts than tourney players. As for the comments in this thread regarding things like Poker Superstars or whatever, I am not familiar with that show, but in most of these televised shows, the cash game players that play in them are not NL experts.

There are countless very successful tourney players who consistently get their asses handed to them in cash games, and not very many tourney specialists who are very tough cash players.

On the flip side, I don't know of any top cash game players who have any trouble doing quite well in tourneys and know of many cash game specialists who are incredibly tough tourney players.

The fact of the matter is, cash game play is just a lot harder than tourney play. Taking into account the few tourney-specific wrinkles is very easy for a cash game player. On the other hand, one can be a successful tourney player without having anywhere near the knowledge necessary to be a good cash game player.

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I knew you would chime in sooner or later.

Flight_Risk

[James282]

lacky,
thank you for your illuminating explanation of variance, which cash game players surely know nothing about.
-James

[El Diablo]

Gramps,

"Now, if a cash-game only player started playing Step 5s/big blind SNGs against a shark-only lineup...they might not be a huge donator per game (because their cEV will still be pretty solid), but they'd donate at a pretty good rate."

Wrong. Just ask the UB/Stars/Party guys who play in both the highest SNGs and the highest NL games if you want an expert opinion on this.

[DF_Newbie]

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Cash mule,

Watch Poker Superstars II or any other sng formatted event played by great cash game players. Cringe at the terrible late game play. In a format like PS2, I could probably list at least 5 sngers, OP included, who would be solid favorites over that group.

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Most "famous" players play very badly in many circumstances. Plenty of famous tournament players play tournaments pretty badly at times. The way TV pros play is not indicative of how the best players play. Don't embarass yourself by trying to convince anyone that SnG poker is in any way more complicated than a cash game.
-James

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This should be suzzers new avatar

[SlackerMcFly]

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...Banana Pirates...

I have no idea where this came from, or why it makes me laugh, but it does...


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Look in the dictionary under "GreekHouse". He has that effect on everyone and the picture says it all. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
SMcF

[The Yugoslavian]

Sorry Gramps that your thread went to sh!t....but I wanted to chime in to make sure this gem didn't get lost:

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You lost to Yugo HU in front of a room full of your peers. I think the dignity ship has sailed.


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[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Yugoslav

[Gramps]

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The last thing you want in your tournies is more top cash game players. No top cash game players have any trouble with the types of concepts you describe here. Many deep stack cash NL players often have a far better grasp at these concepts than tourney players. As for the comments in this thread regarding things like Poker Superstars or whatever, I am not familiar with that show, but in most of these televised shows, the cash game players that play in them are not NL experts.

There are countless very successful tourney players who consistently get their asses handed to them in cash games, and not very many tourney specialists who are very tough cash players.

On the flip side, I don't know of any top cash game players who have any trouble doing quite well in tourneys and know of many cash game specialists who are incredibly tough tourney players.

The fact of the matter is, cash game play is just a lot harder than tourney play. Taking into account the few tourney-specific wrinkles is very easy for a cash game player. On the other hand, one can be a successful tourney player without having anywhere near the knowledge necessary to be a good cash game player.


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Yeah, I agree. Maybe the tone of my post (and title calculated to get responses) inferred otherwise, but I think I've stated much of the above a number of times in the past. I'm not arguing that the two are of equal degrees, etc. (because that's a bit absurd IMO) My point is that cash game players with some clear flaws in their tourney game are quick to point out the flaws that tournament players have in their cash games, but seem to not have it in them to acknowledge the fact that they aren't as up on the tourney game. Instead of saying, "yeah, I'm not a top tournament player, I probably could be with some effort but just haven't gotten around to it, etc.," they choose to put down tournament poker altogether (directly, or indirectly and not-so-subtlely).

[IHateKeithSmart]

Ha, this is a good thread gramps. I think some folks are going overboard either way, but I get your point.

Unfortunately for me, I'm not good at tourneys or cash games, but I do enjoy making fun of everyone. Thank god SMF taught me how to play Let it Ride! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[Gramps]

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"Now, if a cash-game only player started playing Step 5s/big blind SNGs against a shark-only lineup...they might not be a huge donator per game (because their cEV will still be pretty solid), but they'd donate at a pretty good rate."

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Wrong. Just ask the UB/Stars/Party guys who play in both games if you want an expert opinion on this.

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I'm talking about someone new to the format, obviously guys with tourney/SNG experience will do just fine. And as I acknowledged, that was an extreme (probably unrealistic) example stretching things a bit. Any good cash game player with any tourney skills should do fine. A top cash game player just can't mess up tournament poker anywhere remotely close to how a good tourney player can suck at cash games. Plus, a "good" tourney player might not even be that good, just someone who's a little +$EV and hit a couple of lucky scores (or who has some serious cEV flaws but gains edge just through sheer aggression which bites them in the arse in cash games - i.e. 11-betting PF with K-J-9 in Stud hi/lo).

I guess I hit a nerve with some cash game players. Gimme a top-notch cash game player over a good tournament player any day of the week. On average, the skill level won't be close. But when you venture in the realm of tournaments without much experience there, don't be afraid to acknowledge that you may have some shortcomings. My sense/experience is that there are some (not all, not most, but some) good (at least they appear/appeared solid) cash game players who's egos won't let them do that. I've come in contact with that quite a bit the past few months. That was the point of my post - part observation/commentary, part opportunity to have some fun with wordplay.