Small Blind with KK as Overpair

[ValarMorghulis]

raise 8 or 12>>>>>>>call>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>

ooops, raise to 5 is off the scale

[pokerspite]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I have the wrong terminology about "pot-size raise". The pot was $4.50. That's how much I raised. How is "about $8" a pot-size raise?



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Though it is a minor point of confusion, just want to help clarify this for you.

The pot contains $1.50 from the posted blinds. MP1 calls $1. Then button raises to $2. The pot now has $4.50. For you to make a pot size raise, you are actually calling button's $2 raise making the pot $6.50 and then raising $6.50. So for you to make a pot sized raise would be to raise to $8.50.

Another example. After the flop, the pot holds $100. Your opponent bets $100. To make a pot sized raise would be $400.

Pot has $100.
Opponent bets $100.
You call $100 and raise $300 = $400 = pot sized raise.

Hope I didn't confuse you more.

BTW, push that turn bet.

[Dan Bitel]

ptmusic,

the problem with the check/call line is that if you call teh turn bet and then check the river, all hands worse than you check behind, and all hands better than you bet, but you're still forced to call really anyway. Pushing this turn does NOT make a Jack fold....he only has ~$20 left!!! and to be honest, with the pot that big, even if he had more left, he'd call with a jack

You DO have the wrong terminology about a pot sized raise...pokerspite has just explained it perfectly

As for implied odds, if you raise to $8, he needs to stack you almost every time he hits, or he is making a mistake preflop, if you raise to $5, he only needs to win about $20 every time he hits....so as you can see, he's NOT making a mistake at all

What I mean by "a better chance of outflopping you" is exactly that.....QJ is behind to KK on the flop A LOT more often than 33

asa for the 72o point...ok, I was slightly out, I thought the chance of 72o flopping 2 pair or better was closer to 30:1, but my point still stands, you are giving the button LOVELY odds.

As for your last point, well I'm glad to see you've finally come round to reaslising that a raise to $8 is better, but I still stand by my "seriously flawed thinking point". I made that in reference to that if Villain minraises 67s on the button and you raise to $5, you said you want him to call preflop. IMO this is seriously flawed thinking, and the kind of thinking, no offence, that a lot of begginners have. You DON'T want him to call. See the fundimental theory of poker: "every time you do different to what you would do if you could see your opponents cards, you are making a mistake" (or something along those lines). If he could see your KK, he would DEF call his 67s. Also, if you could see his cards, you would raise more.

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I have the wrong terminology about "pot-size raise". The pot was $4.50. That's how much I raised. How is "about $8" a pot-size raise?



[/ QUOTE ]
Though it is a minor point of confusion, just want to help clarify this for you.

The pot contains $1.50 from the posted blinds. MP1 calls $1. Then button raises to $2. The pot now has $4.50. For you to make a pot size raise, you are actually calling button's $2 raise making the pot $6.50 and then raising $6.50. So for you to make a pot sized raise would be to raise to $8.50.

Another example. After the flop, the pot holds $100. Your opponent bets $100. To make a pot sized raise would be $400.

Pot has $100.
Opponent bets $100.
You call $100 and raise $300 = $400 = pot sized raise.

Hope I didn't confuse you more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent summary, thanks.

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BTW, push that turn bet.

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It seems the postflop decisions have no consensus!

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
ptmusic,

the problem with the check/call line is that if you call teh turn bet and then check the river, all hands worse than you check behind, and all hands better than you bet, but you're still forced to call really anyway. Pushing this turn does NOT make a Jack fold....he only has ~$20 left!!! and to be honest, with the pot that big, even if he had more left, he'd call with a jack

[/ QUOTE ]

A good argument, but I believe that on the river, villain will almost never check behind his last $20 no matter what he has.

[ QUOTE ]
You DO have the wrong terminology about a pot sized raise...pokerspite has just explained it perfectly

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. Got it now. (btw, that part of my previous post was a legitimate question, I wasn't saying I was right and you were wrong).

[ QUOTE ]
As for implied odds, if you raise to $8, he needs to stack you almost every time he hits, or he is making a mistake preflop, if you raise to $5, he only needs to win about $20 every time he hits....so as you can see, he's NOT making a mistake at all

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. But you are also saying that he is making a mistake either way if he does not stack me when he hits, a point that is key to the discussion below.

[ QUOTE ]
What I mean by "a better chance of outflopping you" is exactly that.....QJ is behind to KK on the flop A LOT more often than 33

asa for the 72o point...ok, I was slightly out, I thought the chance of 72o flopping 2 pair or better was closer to 30:1, but my point still stands, you are giving the button LOVELY odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what you mean by "lovely", but I don't see how your point about proper implied odds still stands, now that you see he doesn't get them EVEN if he hits 2 pair AND he stacks me.

[ QUOTE ]
As for your last point, well I'm glad to see you've finally come round to reaslising that a raise to $8 is better, but I still stand by my "seriously flawed thinking point". I made that in reference to that if Villain minraises 67s on the button and you raise to $5, you said you want him to call preflop. IMO this is seriously flawed thinking, and the kind of thinking, no offence, that a lot of begginners have. You DON'T want him to call. See the fundimental theory of poker: "every time you do different to what you would do if you could see your opponents cards, you are making a mistake" (or something along those lines). If he could see your KK, he would DEF call his 67s. Also, if you could see his cards, you would raise more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with him calling if he could see my cards, again assuming he stacks me if he hits. But that holds true with calling an $8 raise as well (since 67s is a better holding than the 72o example above). And in either the $5 or $8 raise, he is making a mistake if I do not get stacked.

In either case, the KK has more pot equity, obviously. Whether villain calls or folds, KK will win in the long run. So the question comes down to: will you make more money when villain continues with an $8 raise (including those times you get stacked and you stack villain) than you lose (don't make) when the $8 raise makes the villain fold. The correct preflop play is a lot closer than you are suggesting, but the main reason I'm leaning toward adjusting my play here is the fact that I'm more likely to get played with a small raise OOP. That, plus it seems to be the consensus here, and although I do have a great deal of experience (believe it or not), the combined experience of all posters in this thread is obviously more than mine. In my experience, limpers and minraisers almost always fold to a 8bb raise preflop, but if the experience of others here suggest that it's a more +EV play, I'll listen to that. Obviously, my $5 and the $12 from the guy who put me on his ignore list are outliers. [Did I really deserve that?]

As for KK raising "more" if one could see the 67s, well that's vague. The goal, according to Mike Caro, is to get the villain to CALL the maximum he is willing to CALL when he is making a mistake to do so. So if you WON'T get stacked, then this situation applies. Note that if you raise to the point where villain folds, he has not made the mistake--you have! Yes, it's +EV, but you are giving up a more +EV.

So if, in the long run, raising here to $8 wins more money because villain does not fold often enough to offset the gains, then it is better, of course. That's true for a $12 raise, and it is true for a $90 raise. But at some point, the raise is too big. So making a blanket statement that one should raise more if KK sees 67s simply doesn't hold true all the time.

Of course, if you meant raise more than $5, ok.

[theben]

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By making a small raise preflop, you're making this situation a whole lot more difficult than you should. You have to make a proper pot-sized raise here, $8.50 if I counted right.


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