Free Will - Page 5

soon2bepro · #41 10-25-2007, 04:24 PM

Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

This is from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

See 2.

jogsxyz · #42 10-25-2007, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

This is from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

See 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

If God is perfect, how can he give humans free will?
Doesn't he know in advance which ones of us will
choose the wrong path?

madnak · #43 10-25-2007, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it is if you believe in free will. It may still be, but I want to hear your thoughts on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it's hard to talk about it because I don't see how free will would make it valid to assign blame. I've asked this a few times (it's how I got my location), but nobody has ever been able to explain to me how, given free will, blame is valid. It's always something like, "But don't you see? A bad person deserves to suffer! Don't you see?"

soon2bepro · #44 10-25-2007, 06:54 PM

"Blame" just means that someone has intentionally (usually directly, but sometimes indirectly) caused harm or something negative, while accomplishment means the oppposite. So you can see why with the mystical concept of free will, there is responsibility.

Now about morality and why those who are responsible "deserve" be punished or prized accordingly...

I think you're right, it's not a rational argument whether free will exists or not. But if it doesn't, responsibility is out of the picture, taking out one of morality's main premises.

carlo · #45 10-25-2007, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

This is from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

See 2.

If God is perfect, how can he give humans free will?
Doesn't he know in advance which ones of us will
choose the wrong path?

[/ QUOTE ]

When free will has been relegated to the realm of "choice" one can always ask who's giving the choice and deny free will. The question of free will is better answered via the consideration of the "knowing doer". By knowing the reasons for my action and acting appropriately I enter into the realm of free will. the fact that another has mandated an action( i.e.thou shalt not kill) in no way denies my free will for I can clearly , in full consciousness, deduce that this this mode of activity is best for a compound of reasons I can bring forth. If I act within this commandment without consideration as in the manner of "duty" or "fear of authority", "laws of the land" then I am not acting freely and am not in the realm of free will. In this consideration each and every one of us is acting, in our life, within various modalities of freedom and non freedom.

The difficulty with this understanding of free will is that of a criminal act or that of moral turpitude. Is one acting within a cognizant clarity while performing a faux pau? If I punch my neighbor in the nose without reason can this be an act within free will. It may seem to the perpetrater that he decided and performed the act and therefore acted freely. Closer examination will reveal that this type of behavior is resultant to a clouding of consciousness and the man was not acting freely. Being overcome by emotion, fear, hate and the various inhabitants of human feelings is not acting freely but chained to the degenerate which exists in all men.

From the above it would seem that entering into the realm of free will is an intellectual or even abstract conclusion. Rid me of my feelings and I'll always be acting in free will. Not so, for to act freely is to carry Love into the intellect and in this Mankind progresses. So we have a thought permeated by Love and containing a will force which can bring an act to fruition. So ,in effect, individual man gains entry into the realm of free will via Love. In this he becomes free.

Two statements come to mind"the truth shall set you free" and something to the effect of "Learn of Me".

As is usual, I'll make my plea for understanding of reincarnation and karma in which individual spirit(man) through many lifetimes gains this freedom within Love.

DougShrapnel · #46 10-27-2007, 04:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

This is from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

See 2.

[/ QUOTE ]It was your mention of reality I took issue with. Is conscious reasoning a prior cause? I don't believe it to be.

soon2bepro · #47 10-28-2007, 02:02 PM

Okay, so you're stating that thoughts do not influence decisions?

I can see then, why you'd believe in delusional nonsense such as free will.

DougShrapnel · #48 10-28-2007, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, so you're stating that thoughts do not influence decisions?

I can see then, why you'd believe in delusional nonsense such as free will.

[/ QUOTE ]No, I believe that thoughts do influence decisions, and at the very minimum an ability to suspend action until different outcomes can be looked at and then chosen upon some preference is enough to qualify for free will.

soon2bepro · #49 10-28-2007, 08:29 PM

But you said they "are not a "prior cause""

How can they not be part of causality if they do in fact influence something else that exists within reality?

DougShrapnel · #50 10-28-2007, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But you said they "are not a "prior cause""

How can they not be part of causality if they do in fact influence something else that exists within reality?

[/ QUOTE ]For instance I could coin the term a "prior freedom". There is an amount of freedom in thought.

I only posted in this thread not really to get into the free will debate but merely point out that your definition of free will and reality, completely assumed your conclusion. I am not convinced that the nature of reality disallows freedom, experimentation that I've seen presented is not conclusive. There is much to consciousness yet to be discovered. I'm gonna withhold my judgement on this matter, until I can get some real evidence that reality disallows freedom, or direct observation of consciouness can be realized.