where do you think brady will stand among the all time greats?

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I made a long post in the other thread. About this
Cliff notes:
Manning has had 5 MVP seasons 3 other excellent seasons 1 mediocre season
Brady has had 0 MVP seasons and 4 excellent seasons and 3 above average seasons

Anyone who thinks Brady>>>> Manning is stupid and can't provide any decent argument other than RIIIIIIINNNNNNGSSSSS

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that if Brady keeps pace this season this will be far and away the most valuable season ever by a QB? Like if you could take Bonds ~04 and Pedro ~99 and meld them into a quasi-LFer/SP. You'd have what Brady is doing currently.

Brady as far as a greater player is such a significant amount behind Peyton that'd he needs to keep pace this season and put together 5-8 solid seasons after to really be considered in that upper echelon.

Assuming that happens... Of course he's a reasonable shot for top player all time. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I think you guys are missing. Brady didn't suddenly get a ton better this offseason. He just got better weapons and the coaching staff opened up the playbook to more passing.

So when you say "If Brady puts up 5-8 more seasons like this then hes up there"....my response is that hes been playing like this for his entire career!

A QB's stats are largely impacted by his surrounding talent and offensive scheme. Brady has been a top QB his entire career. Stats really don't tell the story in football like they do in other sports where an individual is less dependant on his teamates.



I'm curious...Do you guys disagree with my first sentence? Do you think that Brady really was just a decent QB who suddenly improved a ton this offseason? If so, why do you think he suddenly got so much better this offseason?

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
This is what I think you guys are missing. Brady didn't suddenly get a ton better this offseason. He just got better weapons and the coaching staff opened up the playbook to more passing.

So when you say "If Brady puts up 5-8 more seasons like this then hes up there"....my response is that hes been playing like this for his entire career!

A QB's stats are largely impacted by his surrounding talent and offensive scheme. Brady has been a top QB his entire career. Stats really don't tell the story in football like they do in other sports where an individual is less dependant on his teamates.


[/ QUOTE ]

[RandomUser]

I think that Manning is a superior quarterback mentally. The system they've developed for calling multiple plays in the huddle and then having him call it at the line is amazing.

Brady seems to be the better quarterback physically throwing the ball. Some of the throws he had today were amazing--70 yards in the air on a rope. He also seems to make decisions quicker in the pocket; maybe he has better instincts than Manning does.

Brady was a great quarterback before this season, but the addition of Moss and the other receivers has given him so many targets that it is impossible for defenses to cover them all.

And yes, Moss, is the biggest part of the increase in his numbers with his ability to make catches that noone else in the league can do.

I think that Moss has finally matured into a team player rather than the "Me, first" prima donna that he's been for the majority of his career.

You don't see him running off his mouth like he used to. You don't see him getting in trouble off the field like he used to. But you sure see him taking care of business on the field and he is doing it without all the theatrics.

TO and Chad Johnson could learn a few things from his change in attitude. TO has improved somewhat this season in this regard and even Chad said he is foregoing his celebrations until his team hits .500 (which means we don't have to worry about him celebrating until 2008).

But we are finally seeing just how effective these receivers can be when they buy into the 'team first' mentality instead of being narcissitic losers with great stats on a losing team.

[bowens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I won't rank him against Unitas and other old timers that I never saw play, but I think hes the best football player I've ever seen. Rice would be #2. LT would be #3. Manning might be in the next few fwiw.

[/ QUOTE ]
I like how the first comment in the post is "I don't want to rank him against players I have ever seen." Than you proceed to mention Lawrence Taylor who retired when you were 11.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pudge, I've tried before to have good debates with you, but your posts just reek of arrogance. For the record, I've seen at least 30 FULL games of LT either live or on tape. Why can't you just ask me "Assani, have you really seen LT play that much in order to evaluate him?" instead of making a smart ass reply?

[/ QUOTE ]
Assani, assuming what you say is true. Don't you see that there will be a massive selection bias in the games you watch.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pudge,

Most posters on this forum don't provide any frame of reference for the extent of their knowledge/research on subjects of discussion. Many are even willing to jump right into debates that they'll admit that they don't know much about.

Whether you love me or hate me, I think you have to admit that I'm usually pretty good about this. Go look at any of my baseball thread posts. At least 1/4 of the time I preface them with "I'm really no expert on baseball at all, but....". And I'm doing the same thing here by trying to exclude from commenting on players that I havn't seen.

Why are you critisizing me here when I am more honest than 99% of the people on this board in this regard? Do you really think that all of the people in these threads that comment on Marino or Montana are over 30 years old and have seen their full careers? Sometimes I feel as if your sole goal in some of these threads is to find petty points where I may have provided some little contradiction and to call me out on it. Is there not a better use of your time and would the thread not be better off if you stuck to the actual debate(or did that for everyone, including yourself, and not just me)?

[/ QUOTE ]
I see what you did there. You never answered the question.

[David H]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that Manning is a superior quarterback mentally. The system they've developed for calling multiple plays in the huddle and then having him call it at the line is amazing.

Brady seems to be the better quarterback physically throwing the ball. Some of the throws he had today were amazing--70 yards in the air on a rope. He also seems to make decisions quicker in the pocket; maybe he has better instincts than Manning does.

Brady was a great quarterback before this season, but the addition of Moss and the other receivers has given him so many targets that it is impossible for defenses to cover them all.

And yes, Moss, is the biggest part of the increase in his numbers with his ability to make catches that noone else in the league can do.

I think that Moss has finally matured into a team player rather than the "Me, first" prima donna that he's been for the majority of his career.

You don't see him running off his mouth like he used to. You don't see him getting in trouble off the field like he used to. But you sure see him taking care of business on the field and he is doing it without all the theatrics.

TO and Chad Johnson could learn a few things from his change in attitude. TO has improved somewhat this season in this regard and even Chad said he is foregoing his celebrations until his team hits .500 (which means we don't have to worry about him celebrating until 2008).

But we are finally seeing just how effective these receivers can be when they buy into the 'team first' mentality instead of being narcissitic losers with great stats on a losing team.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well yeah sure but what about intangibles?

[Kneel B4 Zod]

also, agree with whomever said that this debate will go on forever.

Brady won't finish with the same #'s Manning will - largely b/c he won't spend at much as time with elite receivers as Manning.

In addition, Brady ends up playing a lot more games in sub-optimal passing conditions than Manning.

[LuckyLloyd]

I just have two questions:

1) Is it really possible to differentiate between two players from different sides of the ball and different footballing eras in order to reach a conclusion on who is the greater player? By this I mean can you ever sit down and have a constructive discussion on whether the likes of Brady or LT is the "better" player?

2) When talking about all time greats; should the question of whether a player fundamentally changed the scope and impact of a particular position be given a higher weighting than the black and white realities of stats and rings? As such, can the impact and legacy of revolutionary players like Unitas and LT ever be surpassed by Manning and Brady - irrespective of what records they might set?

[Pudge714]

Assani,
You didn't answer my question.
The reason why I don't care if other people have seen Marino or Montana is because there arguments aren't based entirely around seeing them play. When your whole argument is based around seeing them play, whether or not you have seem them play isn't a petty point.

[RedBean]

[ QUOTE ]

Someone would probably know this for sure, but didn't Joe Gibbs come up w/ the 2 tight end set to stop LT? Also, didn't Bill Walsh change his offense because of LT? (Bill Parcells called it "That West Coast Offense".)

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I've heard stories of it. If it's true, LT HAS to be #1.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Gibbs story is accurate, as it was almost exclusively a result of LT's domincance....the WC offense by Walsh not so much....had more to do with supplanting the need for a running game with a series of short high percentage passes, although a definite benefit of the quick released timing routes was to negate LT.

To add to the LT effect, though, also note that almost exclusively because of him more teams went to the 2pt stance for the OT's in 3rd down, which wasn't widely done at the time,...in fact Gibbs mostly went to the two-te sets because he didn't want to conced the 2pt stance for his tackles... and the rules committee even made adjustments allowing the tackles to line up half a yard deeper than previous in order to counter his tremendous speed off the edge....and have since then go on to make it a full yard.

He also changed the way QB's were taught dropback mechanics, in so much as keeing the ball at the waist rather than held out, thanks to his propensity to strip with one arm while still engaged in a block.

[CharlieDontSurf]

Is Moss signed beyond this year or will they have to extend his contract?