If You're a Christian who Believes in Evolution.. - Page 5

Lestat · #41 10-20-2007, 10:01 PM

This parable raises a couple of questions for me:

1. It's nice for this woman, but what about all the others who lived out the rest of their lives in agony?

2. Jesus implies Satan had caused the woman's troubles. So are you suggesting that everyone saddled with suffering was inflicted by Satan himself? Does this imply they are more evil than those who are not inflicted?

3. What about the 11 year old laying in a bed with Leukemia somewhere suffering and and weeks away from death. Where is his savior?

We're straying from the OP, but since you brought it up I'd like to hear your answers. Also...

Please note that at some point you're going to have to rely on your own logic and quit citing biblical verse. I'm sure these verses ring very true to you. But for those of us who aren't quite as susceptible to being gullible, they are ancient hearsay and hold little to no credibility.

Lestat · #42 10-20-2007, 10:07 PM

I agree. And your point above about it being almost cruel and mean to save one girl while letting others suffer when all it would take is a glance from Jesus is another excellent point. It's simple logic that comes to non-believers rather easily. Not so easily for believers.

I'm just saying that believers won't likely ever get the logic part if they have to wade through insults to get there. NotReady has been notably absent for a few weeks. He never backed away from an argument, but I suspect he got sick of the insults.

MiloMinderbinder · #43 10-20-2007, 10:18 PM

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I agree. And your point above about it being almost cruel and mean to save one girl while letting others suffer when all it would take is a glance from Jesus is another excellent point. It's simple logic that comes to non-believers rather easily. Not so easily for believers.

I'm just saying that believers won't likely ever get the logic part if they have to wade through insults to get there. NotReady has been notably absent for a few weeks. He never backed away from an argument, but I suspect he got sick of the insults.

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Probably true. But then again, it's a bit silly trying to explain to grown adults that Santa Claus isn't real. And I admit that I was a devout and sincere Christian through my mid-teens, so I understand the defensive nature of one's beliefs. A fortified wall built on quicksand. One that can be chipped away argument by argument, or maybe blown to bits in some cases by showing the raw absurdity of it all.

Splendour · #44 10-20-2007, 11:02 PM

Well bible verses are our truth and its the best form of truth I can give you. If you can tell when the Lord is at work, when Satan is at work, when biology is at work, when peoples own actions are at work more power to you. It is a mystery and its suppose to be a mystery. The bible teaches us to rely on Jesus and God and not on ourselves. Our humility actually is a form of strength like the flexibility certain types of trees have in a strong wind (say bamboo or a weeping willow tree). We can bend so we don't break easily.

The more you rely on the word the more you rely on truth and the truth shall set you free. Once you really have Jesus you don't value the things of this world as highly and you know that better things are ahead. That's why people's constant talking about this problem or that thing happening is something we handle better. We have hope for something better.

Faith helps us handle adversity and transform ourselves into something better while having a beneficial impact in our communities and worshiping God in the manner he deems appropriate.

It teaches us not to blame, not to complain, to have patience, to perserve, to have hope, to have charity, to have love, to not argue, to not gossip,to not be vain, to not let ambition control us, to help the weak (in particular widows and orphans), to not have anger (Christ says anger ="s murder in your heart...plenty of anger management problems out there...you read about them in the news everyday). Basically to examine ourselves, repent, and continuously re-examine ourselves and our motives. It is a system that perfects someone morally and spiritually and ultimately is to be reflected in action. I could go on with virtues we are to practice, but you get my drift.

What you focus on is the difference between success and failure. People are all in different stages of faith so its confusing to someone watching from outside.

Regarding the 11 year old you mentioned, if you have faith then you have hope they are going to a better place, because this is not the end of the road.

furyshade · #45 10-20-2007, 11:12 PM

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Well bible verses are our truth and its the best form of truth I can give you. If you can tell when the Lord is at work, when Satan is at work, when biology is at work, when peoples own actions are at work more power to you. It is a mystery and its suppose to be a mystery. The bible teaches us to rely on Jesus and God and not on ourselves. Our humility actually is a form of strength like the flexibility certain types of trees have in a strong wind (say bamboo or a weeping willow tree). We can bend so we don't break easily.

The more you rely on the word the more you rely on truth and the truth shall set you free. Once you really have Jesus you don't value the things of this world as highly and you know that better things are ahead. That's why people's constant talking about this problem or that thing happening is something we handle better. We have hope for something better.

Faith helps us handle adversity and transform ourselves into something better while having a beneficial impact in our communities and worshiping God in the manner he deems appropriate.

It teaches us not to blame, not to complain, to have patience, to perserve, to have hope, to have charity, to have love, to not argue, to not gossip,to not be vain, to not let ambition control us, to help the weak (in particular widows and orphans), to not have anger (Christ says anger ="s murder in your heart...plenty of anger management problems out there...you read about them in the news everyday). Basically to examine ourselves, repent, and continuously re-examine ourselves and our motives. It is a system that perfects someone morally and spiritually and ultimately is to be reflected in action. I could go on with virtues we are to practice, but you get my drift.

What you focus on is the difference between success and failure. People are all in different stages of faith so its confusing to someone watching from outside.

Regarding the 11 year old you mentioned, if you have faith then you have hope they are going to a better place, because this is not the end of the road.

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this is a bunch of tired rhetoric, you say you are flexible yet you are unable to even considering that there is no god. you say the bible says that you should rely on god and jesus and not on yourself, yet you say humans are capable of free will. how can we have free will yet not have faith in our own abilities, by your logic free will is dictated by outside forces, and therein is not free.

Splendour · #46 10-20-2007, 11:23 PM

you say you are flexible yet you are unable to even considering that there is no god

Been there...Done that..

furyshade · #47 10-20-2007, 11:36 PM

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you say you are flexible yet you are unable to even considering that there is no god

Been there...Done that..

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okay, even given that, how do you respond to the rest of what i say?

Lestat · #48 10-21-2007, 12:24 AM

The bible teaches us to rely on Jesus and God and not on ourselves. 

This one sentence (as true as it is), is my biggest problem with religion. Why don't you see the danger in that statement? In other words kids... Don't think for yourselves! When something doesn't make sense, don't question it. Just believe what you're told.

I'm really not trying to be insulting, but I truly pity those who take solace in that statement and find it a tenet to live by.

jstnrgrs · #49 10-21-2007, 01:48 AM

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Well, there is do doubt that there was sin for some time before Jesus came. I, and most Christians believe that the death of Jesus covered all sins (both those before and after Jesus came). Therefore, as far as I can tell, it wouldn't have mattered when Jesus came. So I think the answer to your question, "Why did God wait 198,000 years to send Jesus?", is "why not?"

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Then why would it matter if Jesus was sent at all?

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Well, I guess that God had to do something about sin, and the thing he chose to do was send Jesus. I don't see how the timing of this is relevant at all.

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What I'm saying is that if you believe in evolution, then you accept that humans have been around in our current form for aproximately 200,000 years. For 198,000 of those years (which represents 99% of the entire time we have existed in our current form), God did nothing to absolve us of our sins.

[/ QUOTE ] I believe that God exists outside of our time. Your statment that for 99% of our existance God did nothing is incorrect. The fact that God would send Jesus in the future (which, for God, is the same as sending him in the past or present) absolves people of all times (both before and after Jesus) of their sins. It doesn't matter if you lived before or after Jesus.

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What is the likelihood that you would live in the 1% moment in time that humans could know about Jesus? This alone should make one skeptical. Also...

[/ QUOTE ] As I just said, when you live is irrelevant.
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If armagedon is near (which I think most Christians believe it is), this would mean God allowed 99% of all human history to pass before sending Jesus to save us.

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Again, when Jesus was sent is irrelevant. He saves all, past, presant, and future.

jstnrgrs · #50 10-21-2007, 01:50 AM

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Man has freewill. Unfortunately, Satan was able to introduce evil into the world by deceiving man into rebellion against God.

See Platinga's God, Freedom and Evil.

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Some god. His whole beautiful, sinless creation ruined by one rogue angel. And now billions of the creatures he supposes loves will burn for eternity, all because of that damned satan. Your god is a pathetic putz if he'd allow one of his own creations to ruin it for everyone.

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He didn't though. That's why Jesus came. To save everyone.