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#41
10-18-2007, 07:01 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
Flop is good, turn I probably play the same way, but after looking at that club, I think the best line is to go into c/c mode. You have 4 outs vs. his flush, and people spike gutters on me all the time, so gl! c/c mode allows us to maximize $ vs. hands we beat and hands they might raise us with (AQ w/ A of clubs, KK w/ K of clubs, even A5 w/ A of clubs). As you played though, you probably have to c/f river UI since this really looks like a flush. [/ QUOTE ] Right, if I had used the c/c line I could have spent the extra BB on the river for the same cost. Someone said that we are wa/wb here. But, there is a draw on the board. Betting into a possible flush is begging to get raised as a semi-bluff, a bluff or even a made hand. 
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#42
10-18-2007, 07:23 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
Someone said that we are wa/wb here. [/ QUOTE ] That would be me. I like your reasoning that even if we bet, thinking wa/wb, we're still opening ourselves up to the semibluff raise. The more I look at the hand and read the thread I want to check/call my way to a showdown assuming the river isn't real ugly.
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#43
10-18-2007, 07:51 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Someone said that we are wa/wb here. [/ QUOTE ] That would be me. I like your reasoning that even if we bet, thinking wa/wb, we're still opening ourselves up to the semibluff raise. The more I look at the hand and read the thread I want to check/call my way to a showdown assuming the river isn't real ugly. [/ QUOTE ] Like a 5 or a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] - that would be ugly. Thanks, I think that I learn something today that will help me.
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#44
10-18-2007, 07:59 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
Being aggressive in this spot (3-bet flop and lead the turn) is most likely -EV. [/ QUOTE ]I think you're being results-oriented, here. Most players--even bad ones--do not raise the flop if they have the eight or two clubs. They put you on AK and raise if they have 99 or 77. If you have any type of discipline you're probably tighter than most/all of the table, so your PFR already told them you have a good hand. Don't miss value because you don't want to give away information, especially on a draw-heavy board where you're likely to get paid off nicely. I can see an argument for wa/wb when the club hits the turn (though I still think bet is a better choice), but 3-betting the flop is definitely not -EV. [ QUOTE ] BTW - what in the heck does <font color="red">Grunch</font> mean? [/ QUOTE ]It means posting before you've read the other responses. It's a lame term, IMO.
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#45
10-18-2007, 08:11 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Being aggressive in this spot (3-bet flop and lead the turn) is most likely -EV. [/ QUOTE ]I think you're being results-oriented, here. Most players--even bad ones--do not raise the flop if they have the eight or two clubs. They put you on AK and raise if they have 99 or 77. If you have any type of discipline you're probably tighter than most/all of the table, so your PFR already told them you have a good hand. Don't miss value because you don't want to give away information, especially on a draw-heavy board where you're likely to get paid off nicely. I can see an argument for wa/wb when the club hits the turn (though I still think bet is a better choice), but 3-betting the flop is definitely not -EV. [ QUOTE ] BTW - what in the heck does <font color="red">Grunch</font> mean? [/ QUOTE ]It means posting before you've read the other responses. It's a lame term, IMO. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks for the advice and the definition. Barry T in cardplayer wrote an article on 3-bet the flop or c/r the turn and it takes some experience. I played it as 3-bet the flop and lead the turn. Maybe checking the turn is a better option. If I think they are on a draw I re-raise as my default play. Where I play the 6/12 live players love to raise with draws, even check raise.
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#46
10-19-2007, 11:27 AM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
I like the flop 3-bet. The turn is admittedly bad. Is this one of those times (appealing to all who have posted in this thread) that we should "check hands with outs and bet hands with few/no outs" when we're OOP?
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#47
10-19-2007, 11:36 AM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
I like the flop 3-bet. The turn is admittedly bad. Is this one of those times (appealing to all who have posted in this thread) that we should "check hands with outs and bet hands with few/no outs" when we're OOP? [/ QUOTE ] I agree and I was going to bring that up (I think I read that in one of D. Sklansky's books). But, here you have 4 outs to a full house or 9%. How much of an out is that? It is -EV on this betting round, I think. The pair on the board does represent a threat of trips which kill an 8 as an out. But, as played I think he has a flush. So, I was not sure. But, many recommend checking the turn. That would be giving a free card which only really hurts if he would fold for a bet which he will not do. Turn looks like a check. Thanks
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#49
10-19-2007, 12:40 PM
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Re: Red AA. 6/12 limit. Action on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch* I like the hand as played. Against most live players I am bet/folding the turn. [/ QUOTE ] Thanks - this is a real bugaboo with me and that is why I have discussed this hand so much. I have an over pair and am not sure when to release it. Sometimes it is obvious, you have KK or QQ and the flop is an Ace and there is lots of action. The count seems to favor prudence and that will save me money long term, me thinks. I think that one of the most important skills at low limit live games is to know when to fold (corollary to knowing when to bet it and/or call then down). Please see my JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] post.
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