Hand from deep in 6 max wcoop - Page 5

ZJ123 · #41 10-13-2007, 02:20 AM

So Hero calls (along with UTG), and this is the flop? Bet or check? Whats the Plan ?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t12000 (6 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO (t646507)
Button (t1519258)
SB (t388982)
Hero (t799909)
UTG (t752471)
MP (t961038)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t33000, MP raises to t90000, 3 folds, Hero calls t78000, UTG calls t57000.

Flop: (t262800) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero

0evg0 · #42 10-13-2007, 02:55 AM

check duh

mikeJ · #43 10-13-2007, 03:29 AM

Fold pre unless you will be able to cheaply separate AK/JJ/TT and worse from KK+ (or get him to stack off w/ JJ/TT). Your hand suffers from sick reverse implied odds (I think that's what it's called). Cause, tho you're ahead of his current range, it's going to be hard to value bet vs. anything in his range. And new money (money over the initial 90k) going into the pot is usually going to end up going in as a dog (eating your equity, eating up the profit you made vs. his initial 3-betting range).

mikeJ · #44 10-13-2007, 03:43 AM

Postflop, c/c-ing is meh. C/r-ing sucks and leading for a normal sized bet is meh. (meh being > sucks)

If you know your opponents will rarely bluff you off best hand if you lead for something like 70k, then I like that.

Yea, I said it, donk lead for ~30% pot if you think your opponents will rarely raise you w/ AK/JJ/bluff which I think very well may be true.

I think c/c-ing is the runner up choice, but I'll tell you why I don't like it. For one, you risk having it checked around in a 3 way pot. If an A/K comes off, your equity just went way down. And there are a lot of cards that may help UTG's range. Clubs/T/9/8/J, who knows. Say RR does bet tho, are you comfortably check/folding? Ok, say you c/c and it gets HU, you gotta be sure he shuts down w/ JJ/AK (because if he bets like 2/3rd pot on turn, I think you gotta let go of your hand, so getting bluffed by JJ/AK is a disaster) on a blank turn, and you gotta check to him on a blank turn. But say he does check back AK/JJ, depending on his flop bet size. Let's say he bets 2/3rd pot. He's getting 5 to 2 odds to draw w/ his AK/JJ (assuming he takes free card on turn) when he's a 3 to 1 dog w/ AK and a 9 to 1 dog w/ JJ, yea that's good for you, you've profited in that scenario. But this is all assuming he cbets full combos of AK/JJ in the first place. Which he doesn't in reality. Meaning new money you put in on the flop is going in as a dog...

Board: Tc 5c 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.296% 48.04% 01.26% 108435 2835.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 50.704% 49.45% 01.26% 111615 2835.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }

Board: Tc 5c 4d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.930% 38.23% 01.70% 63576 2835.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 60.070% 58.37% 01.70% 97074 2835.00 { QQ+, JcJs, JdJh, JdJs, JhJs, TT, AKs, AcKs, AdKh, AdKs, AhKs } [2/3rd combos of JJ, 1/2 combos of AK]

.. but you're able to call because of pot odds. And occasionally UTG will c/r AI, which is a huge mess too.

Also, my analysis in the two posts above is based on opponent's range being overwhelmingly weighted towards TT+/AK, which I think is a sound assumption given read.

RandALLin · #45 10-13-2007, 06:36 AM

I also think the dynamics are more important than people think here. With these wcoops there were 30 minute levels and plenty of time to pass marginal spots. I'm not a huge nit I don't think, but, folding here is good IMO. If you have as big of an edge as I'd assume w/ just 12 people left in a 6max tournament. So many spots in position w/ those levels/stacks seems too juicy. Maybe I am a nit. I don't mind the flat preflop though, and I like MikeJ's donk lead idea, seeing as someone can't bluff you here since it looks so huge.

Todd Terry · #46 10-13-2007, 10:47 AM

I vote for c/f. While a Lee Childs (weak lead/fold) has a greater chance of success here than it did when Childs did it due to the nittiness of this opponent vs. the aggressiveness of Yang, I still wouldn't do it. I think it's going to be tough for the 3bettor to pull the trigger on a c-bet here, especially if he's nitty tight as described, if he has AK (unless it's clubs). He also has to be worried about the T, which is squarely in the set range for both callers. So I think checking is going to get us as much info as leading, for a lower price.

apestyles · #47 10-14-2007, 01:36 AM

On the flop how terrible is it to make around 1/2-2/3 pot bet with the intention of calling the initial raisers shove and folding to a raise from the MP?

0evg0 · #48 10-14-2007, 04:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
On the flop how terrible is it to make around 1/2-2/3 pot bet with the intention of calling the initial raisers shove and folding to a raise from the MP?

[/ QUOTE ]

not terrible at all except the bet size is unnecessarily too big. still think c/f is probably better tho

apestyles · #49 10-14-2007, 05:21 AM

yea, the more I think about it the more I like 1/2 pot or smaller bet. I can't come up with any good reasons for a larger bet. Originally I thought I didn't want to induce a bluff from MP. But, the likely outcome is that he flats thereby making our decision on the turn is easier. Inducing a bluff from the original raiser is actually desirable as it will probably knock MP off all but monsters - he may even fold AA or KK. So, I change my line to 70-100kish bet.

kypreanus · #50 10-14-2007, 01:36 PM

Given the reads, I would P&P (push and pray).

I just can't pull myself to call that PF OOP. If you are 100% sure the TAG has you beat then fold, but dont spew and call OOP.