Turning Hand Up Headup = Unethical?

[egocidal]

You're right, its hard to put in specific words why its illegal. Because its not. Do you also wear a hoodie and sunglasses at the table, and frequently wonder out loud about your opponents hole cards?

"I bet he has KK".

It's close enough. I wouldn't call you out or anything at the casino, but I would def laugh at you for a long period of time.

[bav]

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I don't buy bav's reason. because if a player turns his card face up but continues to keep his cards I have never once thought he was folding...

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You are an experienced professional. You know better. Think back to when you were wet behind the ears, were sitting down to the big NL game for the first time, and $200 in front of you felt like a LOT. I tell ya, I've seen at least 5 times in the last couple years that someone shows their cards while keeping 'em close, and the other player thinks he's folded and does something foolish (or starts to before someone tells him "he hasn't folded yet").

[Gonso]

This will kill a hand in a tourney, but is fine for a HU pot in our house. When I see it at 1/2 the first thing I think is that this guy just read Super System for the first time yesterday.

[pfapfap]

It slows down the game, plain and simple, and it's a bad precedent for the Hollywooders. Causes confusion, the dealer has to trip over him/herself to make sure action is clarified for everybody, etc.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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It slows down the game, plain and simple,

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When someone puts another player all-in, they are entitled to take their time making a decision. They can always call the clock on me if they like. If anything it speeded up the game because was I IMMEDIATELY got the feeling he did not like what he saw, I IMMEDIATELY called. It made the game faster. So if anything this is a positive....

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Causes confusion,

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I saw no evidence of this. Everyone was quite clear what was going on at my table. Perhaps you are confusing your personal dislike of this tactic for an argument.

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the dealer has to trip over him/herself to make sure action is clarified for everybody, etc.

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Again this did not happen....
The more 'arguments' I hear against this tactic, the more I believe it is a completely legit tactic and those that oppose it are nits.... Again no one can give me a logical reason why this is a bad tactic....

[Mr Rick]

I confess to being amused by your attitude. You say you are a B&M rookie and then you act like you know everything based on the results of the one experience you had.

Imagine if I cold called 3 bets preflop with 74o and won the hand against AA and KK when 444 flopped. If someone told me I should have folded do I tell them "well in my case it worked out so I think you have nothing to offer?"

So what if in your case everything went smoothly. Bav and pfapfap have tons of real life experience - one being a dealer. And they are trying to help you. But I am guessing you don't need help.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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You say you are a B&M rookie and then you act like you know everything based on the results of the one experience you had.

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1. The poll results of B&M players overwhelmingly supported my play.
2. The poll results of B&M players overwhelmingly supported my play.
3. The poll results of B&M players overwhelmingly supported my play.
4. I learned this from Doyle. One Doyle is worth a thousand random posters.
5. No one on this forum can give me a coherant reason why this is bad.
I respond to well thought out arguments and reasons but you can not provide any... If anything you are clinging to the minority opinion and you can NOT give *ONE* coherent reason to support your opinion....

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So what if in your case everything went smoothly. Bav and pfapfap have tons of real life experience - one being a dealer. And they are trying to help you. But I am guessing you don't need help.

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Your opinion is in the minority and you can not explain your case. I asked the 2+2 forum for help about this play and I got it..... If anything your failure to express your reasoning and your clinging to the minority opinion shows your are guilty of what you accuse me of....

[Clancy]

The problem with the play is that you are unfairly gaining information (your opponent's response) due to acting out of turn. You shouldn't muck, bet, call OR expose your cards out of turn.

[pfapfap]

You're being very un-Dude. I was merely giving you the reasons why I don't like this kind of thing, since you gave the impression you felt those against it thought it was an angle-shoot. I deal limit, though, so my experience is different. I was just offering a perspective, not trying to argue.

[pfapfap]

Anyway, since you're fixated on your immediate surroundings, I'll elaborate.

Sure, maybe you have a valid reason for doing it this time. Maybe it speeds up this hand.

But it sets a precedent for those who like to think they're on ESPN. Sure, you save twenty seconds, but extrapolate a bit for all the folks just putting on a show because they saw that hotshot do it once, and the folks that see them, etc etc. For a lot of people, especially at mid-stakes fixed limit games, it does indeed cause confusion. I guarantee I've seen far more live hands than you have, you'll just have to trust me on this one.

Since you want to argue so badly, how does that sit with you? Is that valid enough? I'm not saying it's a strong enough reason, but is it at least recognized by you as a valid consideration?