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#41
10-05-2007, 09:20 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
[ QUOTE ]
CAFE is a dumb way to deal with global warming because it isn't flexible enough. Automobiles are far from the only source of CO2. A much better plan is to have a broad-based carbon tax. That way, the least-valued uses of CO2 will be eliminated, whatever industry they're in, and the higher-valued ones can remain. [/ QUOTE ] That assumes that everyone has an equivalent purchasing power. What will end up happening is some rich people will carry on driving inefficient cars, flying all around the planet and having the air-conditioning on full during the summer, whilst many more won't be able to afford to heat their homes. Much fairer is to issue everyone a carbon ration. If you use yours up you buy some (via a third-party market system) of someone who hasn't used theirs. This clearly incentivises low-carbon lifestyles. 
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#42
10-05-2007, 09:35 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] CAFE is a dumb way to deal with global warming because it isn't flexible enough. Automobiles are far from the only source of CO2. A much better plan is to have a broad-based carbon tax. That way, the least-valued uses of CO2 will be eliminated, whatever industry they're in, and the higher-valued ones can remain. [/ QUOTE ] That assumes that everyone has an equivalent purchasing power. What will end up happening is some rich people will carry on driving inefficient cars, flying all around the planet and having the air-conditioning on full during the summer, whilst many more won't be able to afford to heat their homes. Much fairer is to issue everyone a carbon ration. If you use yours up you buy some (via a third-party market system) of someone who hasn't used theirs. This clearly incentivises low-carbon lifestyles. [/ QUOTE ] Rationing... I see no problems there.
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#43
10-05-2007, 09:36 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
Wouldn't this:
[ QUOTE ] Much fairer is to issue everyone a carbon ration. If you use yours up you buy some (via a third-party market system) of someone who hasn't used theirs. [/ QUOTE ] lead directly to this: [ QUOTE ] What will end up happening is some rich people will carry on driving inefficient cars, flying all around the planet and having the air-conditioning on full during the summer, whilst many more won't be able to afford to heat their homes. [/ QUOTE ] Hint: yes, because an appropriately high carbon tax and a cap-and-trade system are basically the same, except the latter involves more corruption and paperwork.
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#44
10-05-2007, 09:43 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't this: [ QUOTE ] Much fairer is to issue everyone a carbon ration. If you use yours up you buy some (via a third-party market system) of someone who hasn't used theirs. [/ QUOTE ] lead directly to this: [ QUOTE ] What will end up happening is some rich people will carry on driving inefficient cars, flying all around the planet and having the air-conditioning on full during the summer, whilst many more won't be able to afford to heat their homes. [/ QUOTE ] Hint: yes, because an appropriately high carbon tax and a cap-and-trade system are basically the same, except the latter involves more corruption and paperwork. [/ QUOTE ] Answer: No it wouldn't because you can use your ration how you like. If you are prepared to not have your air-con on, or not fly, you can sell on your entitlement to those that aren't. It would still allow everyone to live a minimal carbon lifestyle (for free) so they can heat and light their homes, whilst incentivising small cars, fewer journeys etc etc.
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#45
10-05-2007, 10:55 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Because it opens the flood gates. [/ QUOTE ] Say what? [/ QUOTE ] You've obviously never seen Olympic skiing. The flood gates are opened when you're about to go down a very slippery slope. [/ QUOTE ] Well yeah I figured something like that, but I want to know why/how.
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#46
10-05-2007, 10:58 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
Right, but permits are basically a carbon tax + a benefit allowance to pay for whatever CO2 emissions are deemed appropriate. The opportunity cost of using CO2 is still the same, and the rich can still pay to pollute.
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#47
10-05-2007, 11:14 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
[ QUOTE ]
Right, but permits are basically a carbon tax + a benefit allowance to pay for whatever CO2 emissions are deemed appropriate. The opportunity cost of using CO2 is still the same, and the rich can still pay to pollute. [/ QUOTE ] No, thats not it. The price of carbon permits would rise if demand increased, and fall if it decreased. This would be a finite resource which is divided up amongst the people equally (and freely). If someone rich wanted to buy more the money wouldn't go to the government, it would go to whoever wasn't using their allowance and had sold their remaining quota. If noone wanted to sell their allocation then either the purchaser would have to go without, or they would have to offer a higher price.
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#48
10-05-2007, 11:51 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Right, but permits are basically a carbon tax + a benefit allowance to pay for whatever CO2 emissions are deemed appropriate. The opportunity cost of using CO2 is still the same, and the rich can still pay to pollute. [/ QUOTE ] No, thats not it. The price of carbon permits would rise if demand increased, and fall if it decreased. This would be a finite resource which is divided up amongst the people equally (and freely). If someone rich wanted to buy more the money wouldn't go to the government, it would go to whoever wasn't using their allowance and had sold their remaining quota. If noone wanted to sell their allocation then either the purchaser would have to go without, or they would have to offer a higher price. [/ QUOTE ] There are technical differences, but you can just adjust the tax rate until carbon emissions are equal to the hypothetical cap number. As long as the tax increase is revenue-neutral and the offsetting cuts are even, the effects should be approximately the same. Anyways, a cap-and-trade system is a close second in theory, although I don't think it would be managed well in real life.
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#49
10-05-2007, 11:54 AM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
Cap-and-trade was pretty effective for sulphur dioxide but it seems like it would get very complex for carbon emissions. If complexity were not an issue then certainly it would be ideal.
Still the EU is implementing a cap-and-trade system so we will see.
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#50
10-05-2007, 02:30 PM
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Re: What Would Democrats Do for US Policy on Global Warming
[ QUOTE ]
Give federal dollars to research initiatives run by relatives and friends. EArmarks for home district. Use a system of taxes and tariffs to favor connected businesses. Easy to do since everything uses carbons at some point. Generally I think they will make a fortune for themselves manipulating the economy for personal gain under the banner of the environment. [/ QUOTE ] Bingo! Spend spend spend.... tax tax tax, and regulate.
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