I thought this was supposed to be a good flop...

[Guy McSucker]

[ QUOTE ]
a little fact from game theory - in multi street two-person games with multiple raises possible the value of position is negligible. not that it's relevant to the current scenario...

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool. Do you have a proof? Or a reference to a proof? Or just an informal argument?

Is it in Mathematics of Poker somewhere I overlooked?

[rzk]

yes that's where i read it from.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
a little fact from game theory - in multi street two-person games with multiple raises possible the value of position is negligible. not that it's relevant to the current scenario...

[/ QUOTE ]
What?!?!?

You're basically saying that in a regular limit holdem HU game, position is meaningless. Am I reading you right?

That goes agains everything I know about poker. Can you give some explanation, or a page reference so I can look it up (I have Mathematics of Poker at home but haven't managed to read more than 2 chapters yet.)

[Zach6668]

I stopped reading halfway through the replies.

This is such a sick easy preflop raise.

Not being good enough to profitably play this postflop is not an excuse for passing up value preflop.

[Freganism]

What about this hand:

You have QQ in BB in a sixhanded game.

UTG calls
1 folds
CO raises
Button calls
SB calls
BB (HERO) ??

[yourface]

I hope you're not being serious

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
What about this hand:

You have QQ in BB in a sixhanded game.

UTG calls
1 folds
CO raises
Button calls
SB calls
BB (HERO) ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Errh 3-bet?

[dacannman]

I am certainly open the the possibility that I am wrong, and this is an easy preflop raise. But I will continue to discuss anyway.

People are saying that they are good enough to not make mistakes postflop. I agree with this. However, I prefer to think about what my opponents are going to do. If we assume they are really bad postflop, that is worth something to us – it’s the Theory of Poker thing, when they make mistakes we profit.

When are they going to make the most mistakes? They are going to make far more mistakes when the pot is small than when the pot is big. Don’t you all think that your biggest edge in LHE comes when the pot is small? When the pot is large, it just comes down to who gets lucky, because its very close to correct to call down with any possibility to win. This obviously is not the case when the pot is small. When the pots small, we will play correctly because we are good, and the limping opponents will play badly, because that’s what they do, and we will profit.

Maybe the extra profit from their postflop mistakes is not equal or greater than this equity we are forgoing preflop. But maybe it is equal or greater. I don’t know.

So my theory is that we should limp because we play well and they don’t. Its not because we might make mistakes.

[TheWunderkind]

I do it both sometimes, limping or calling often dependiong on who the limpers are and how id been running.

There are arguments for both limping and raising.
As mentioned in the post above 99 in small pot becomes easier to play and forces our opponents to make more mistakes and no one can ever think of us holding a hand strong as 99.

[Zach6668]

[ QUOTE ]
I am certainly open the the possibility that I am wrong, and this is an easy preflop raise. But I will continue to discuss anyway.

People are saying that they are good enough to not make mistakes postflop. I agree with this. However, I prefer to think about what my opponents are going to do. If we assume they are really bad postflop, that is worth something to us – it’s the Theory of Poker thing, when they make mistakes we profit.

When are they going to make the most mistakes? They are going to make far more mistakes when the pot is small than when the pot is big. Don’t you all think that your biggest edge in LHE comes when the pot is small? When the pot is large, it just comes down to who gets lucky, because its very close to correct to call down with any possibility to win. This obviously is not the case when the pot is small. When the pots small, we will play correctly because we are good, and the limping opponents will play badly, because that’s what they do, and we will profit.

Maybe the extra profit from their postflop mistakes is not equal or greater than this equity we are forgoing preflop. But maybe it is equal or greater. I don’t know.

So my theory is that we should limp because we play well and they don’t. Its not because we might make mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Along those same lines, wouldn't a preflop raise by us decrease the potential effect of any postflop mistakes we make?

I understand your argument, but I've never fully bought into it, but I'm not 100% sure why.

************

With respect to the QQ question... I counter with another question:

We have AA in the BB in a 10 handed game. Everyone limps to us, it's a super easy raise, right?

Of course it is. It doubles the size of the pot, sure, and we have to play one pair OOP when there'll be lots of flops that hit these players, but it's still a hugely profitable raise.