Professional No-Limit Holdem SSNL Discussion

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lol

[tpir]

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lol

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Yeah, yeah I know, put it in BBV [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

In all seriousness though, I guess I just don't see the mid-stakes and up practical use for the 2nd half of the book since we (assuming we play 100BBs) will only ever play hands that work out to these SPRs on paper or in examples in poker books.

[carrotsnake]

I really haven't read a ton of this thread, but I feel like theres some random things in it that might be wrong. Probably one of the first is the whole pfr of 1/2 vs 10/20. I swing back and forth between the two a lot, and while last year, I felt that there was a huge difference between the two, at this point in the games evolution, I feel 1/2 sometimes plays MORE aggro preflop, becuase at 10/20 people begin to call more in situations to "outplay" people postflop. The statistic of 11% seems low to me for today's 1/2 game, but I don't have any info in front of me. However, most tables I play consist of 5 regulars who vary between 18/10 and 25/22, so I feel it has to be higher than that. Perhaps irrelevant, but seemingly true nonetheless.

The other thing is the whole shortstack argument between 20 and 50 BBs etc. 20 BBs is easier to play in today's games, because of the spite calling involved against shortstackers. Therefore, when someone raises and a shortstacker pushes, a good deal of his profit comes from players calling sub-optimally against their range. This would not be the case in terms of 50 BBs. Like Tufat said, while optimally 50 might be better in an "optimal" game, the games are not playing like that. The other small quibble is with pot sized bets. If your shortstacking (be it 20 or 50) and someone calls your raise, they generally have a pp or 2 big cards. If you are only potting the flop ( whatever it may be) against this range, you are going to be losing quite a bit because those hands generally connect enough on the flop to continue with the hand, especially when they have position and since you generally miss the flop with your own raising range, your losing a ton of value. That wasn't well explained, but whatever

Haven't read the book though, so take whatever this is with a grain of salt

[PBJaxx]

I just preordered. I have really only read SSHE and TOP, but I am looking forward to this book.

FWIW, I 100% agree with Tufat; in my limited experience, 50BB stacks are teh suck.

[D.L.M.]

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lol

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[Matt Flynn]

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i really think the authors were intending to emphasize the point of view that the reason you're struggling postflop is that you're in too many difficult spots as a direct result of the decisions you're making preflop...

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good posts ryan. yes exactly, you can't always avoid those situations but you can reduce them.


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i like that way of trying to solve postflop problems at the root of the problem. it's just that i haven't really figured out how i'm going to be able to manipulate SPR in my favor with top pair & overpair hands on 100BB stacks...

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it can be tough to impossible. often you simply cannot hit your target SPRs. you then see if you can at least get under your max SPRs. if not, you are in a world of hurt against aggressive opponents and don't necessarily want to raise.

100bb stacks are a pain in the commitment ass for top pair/overpair hands. SPR cannot solve that problem, just make you more aware of why and how it can cost you money. you nudge the SPRs where you want them to go, or opt to play a smaller preflop pot, but that's about it.

it does help to know where you'd like to be ideally (because sometimes you CAN get there). we show how to estimate that, and how to adjust those estimates for different opponents.

[Matt Flynn]

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Just started my first session after finishing PNL. 5th hand in I get AA and raise to 8xBB from LP and get called(!) by a 65BB stack limper.

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why on earth would you raise to 8bb with AA if you did not expect to get called?

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Flop is QJ2, he min-raises me on the flop and I decide I am committed... he has 222 and I am mostly-stacked already. I guess I still don't get it.

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he's 7.5-to-1 to hit his set or better, and you'll hit an overset of aces 9% of the time he does hit a set. he put far too much money in the pot preflop. play that hand a million times and you'd average on the order of 1.3bb per hand plus folded blinds.

[Matt Flynn]

hi carrot,

i'd shortstack 30-40bb depending on the game's aggression but the 20's are fine. 50bb can be too high to take full advantage of loose preflop raisers playing 100bb stacks. that said i'd like all shortstack poker banned.

no clue what people are talking about with making pot-sized bets all the time. that isn't in PNL and isn't how i play. we use pot-sized bets in places in PNL to show how SPR works but it's trivial to adjust to 2/3pot bets or whatever you like.

matt

[ImsaKidd]

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Shortstack poker blows and should be banned imo because it takes so much of the skill out of the game.

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This is really off base IMO without defining shortstack. 10BB I might agree with this statement.

20BB+ is simply a different game than 100BB poker that everyone on this forum is accustomed to. I've taken a ton of flak for SSing but I maintain that 20BB is def. a skill game, and 10BB is not.

[ImsaKidd]

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Therefore, when someone raises and a shortstacker pushes, a good deal of his profit comes from players calling sub-optimally against their range.

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From my experience (we'll just say it is sizeable), I would say this is generally not true.