An absolutly WORLD CLASS play in my opinion......your thoughts please

[qpw]

[ QUOTE ]
The fundamental theorem of poker:
"Everytime you play your hand the way you would if you can see your opponents cards, you gain. Everytime your opponent plays his cards differently than he would if he could see your hand, you also gain."

If you have 44 and flop a set, and your opponent has 88 (and on the same flop makes a set), and you fold--you gain.

David Sklansky said so.

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed he did.

You'll notice that he said you'll gain - not that it was necessarily the correct play under the circumstances.

We all know (I hope) that there are many times when you will come out with a handsome profit by making the wrong play.

It's just that overall, if that wrong play is typical of your technique you will lose, or make less than you would otherwise.

We can't know what was going on in SP's mind, but unless Andy had a tell that was peculiar to making a set (by no means an impossibility), it is unlikely that SP made a good play.

Of course, if he did make the play on the basis of a tell I think he was playing some very effective head games with his mutterings and what have you. It must have distracted his opponents to a degree.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

LOL at attempting to apply the FTOP to this situation. No [censored] sherlock, if we KNOW he has a set of eights its an easy fold. No one is suggesting that the right play would be to try to bluff him off his set (he's probably not as weak-tight as our hero) nor is anyone suggesting that we draw to spike the one 4 in the deck.

What I am suggesting is that you are focusing on the result of a weak fold in a small donkament and calling it world class.

What if villian turns over AK, AQ, AJ, etc? Would you post what an idiotic laydown it was?

You cannot judge the correctness of a play based on the result and say "must have had a grrrreatttt read" You can only put an opponent on a range of hands and make the most EV play. Which is most assuredly not folding this hand.

[WhiteKnight]

I think that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Gigglegirl]

An interesting one.
The board is incredibly dry, no draws available.
Perhaps this player had a good read on Andy and felt that he definitely wasn't bluffing.
Then he assigned him a range. If he thinks Andy would only play this way with KK/AA/88/AK then the range would be as follows,
win
Hand 1: 53.41% {KK+,88,AKs AKo}
Hand 2: 46.59% {44}

In which case, folding becomes more possible. It's never a fold I'd make myself but.........

[lamgabejambo]

There is only one logical and reasonable to explain all this madness. He can see through the cards with magic powers or the cards is marked. In that case, cheating!!!

[Gonso]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 53.41% {KK+,88,AKs AKo}
Hand 2: 46.59% {44}

In which case, folding becomes more possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

This range seems a little tight. Andy could be value betting AQ there on the turn, in fact with a bet like that he could even be seeing if his JJ or TT is good. But even with this range, there is significant money already in the pot to consider. Being a 53-47 dog against his range is an argument for calling or jamming here, not folding.

Erocplayer, you've got a little catching up to do with basic theory. You're misapplying the hell out of the FToP, for one.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
am i crazy to be thinking about this hand so much? have i lost my mind? or was that one SICK ASS FOLD?????
i would love to hear your input on this and also if you have any questions before you comment, ask and ill try and remember any other details i can.....
thanks guys for your input
"Skin City"

[/ QUOTE ]

You read Super System - the first? (Might also be in the second, but I skipped the Doyle's story part of that one.)

Anyway, Brunson explains it perfectly, he outlines what great poker players have and one of the more important traits is ESP. Now, before all the laughs and jeers, I will tell you a secret--many very successful big cash game players agree. But no one says it aloud. With all the evidence for the reality of simple but uncontrollable abilities to extend the senses, I don't know why it's all still equated with witchcraft and astrology - sometimes...you just know. The trick is: recognizing when you really know and when you just wish you knew.

Let the derision commence.....

[Flip-Flop]

Heh. Everytime and on every site when there is a thread about some sick laydown there are arguments like this.
And whenever the folder guy is an unknown player the unimaginative and close minded math geeks start to call him an idiot.
It is starting to annoy me so I must vent some here.

I`m gonna guess that some of you know-it-all pricks know the hand with Doyle Brunson and Chip Reese where Doyle layed down QQ on a baby flop after a bet from Chip (KK).
Now.. I would never lay it down and it was an obvious -EV play in a long run.
Would you call Doyle a weak-tight idiot ?
Do you think that Doyle doesn`t know that the play is -EV?
Do you think that he lays down QQ on a baby flop in any other hand but the one we saw on that video?

There is a group of people that just can not grasp one simple thing:

- THERE IS MUCH MORE TO POKER THEN PROBABILITY !!!

I even have a name for the members of this group.
I call them your average online Jo.
Because thats what these people are....an average online poker player at best.

I don`t know about labeling poker moves "world class plays" but I`m very interested in crazy laydowns like this and it`s mostly because I don`t have it in me to muck a set.
I just can not do it and I don`t think I ever will, tournament or cash game.
I play a lot of Live poker and I`ve never seen a player show a laydown like this but if I ever see it I`m not letting the weirdo go untiel he spills his guts.
I`ll pay him if I have to but I need to know how he got there.
Think about it you math geeks... you might even learn something from the idiot that laydowns sets...imagine that! [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[Galwegian]

This play is not as bad as many people are making out, nor is it as good as OP claims. In an online tournament it is definitely bad, but I think in live play, it is definitely possible for this to be +ev (especially in a tournament, and especially with a round of betting to come)

Think about it this way. After the action on the flop, SP can almost certainly put the BB on two pair or better (I know this is situation dependent, but if he has been paying attention then that read is very possible). Now the strong bet on the turn could ( certainly if combined with some tell) make the laydown correct. Think about ranges. After the turn bet, the SP could have BB on AA, 88, A8, A4, + maybe QQ/KK (just based on the betting action). Some kind of tell could definitely reduce this range enough to make the fold correct. If BB has two pair and is reasonable he would be worried about a set - a tell revealing confidence might be enough to eliminate two pair.

Also, contrary to what some are suggesting, the uncoordinated board is precisely what might make this play correct.

Cliff notes: In certain (live) situations, fold could be marginally correct.

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh. Everytime and on every site when there is a thread about some sick laydown there are arguments like this.
And whenever the folder guy is an unknown player the unimaginative and close minded math geeks start to call him an idiot.
It is starting to annoy me so I must vent some here.

I`m gonna guess that some of you know-it-all pricks know the hand with Doyle Brunson and Chip Reese where Doyle layed down QQ on a baby flop after a bet from Chip (KK).
Now.. I would never lay it down and it was an obvious -EV play in a long run.
Would you call Doyle a weak-tight idiot ?
Do you think that Doyle doesn`t know that the play is -EV?
Do you think that he lays down QQ on a baby flop in any other hand but the one we saw on that video?

There is a group of people that just can not grasp one simple thing:

- THERE IS MUCH MORE TO POKER THEN PROBABILITY !!!

I even have a name for the members of this group.
I call them your average online Jo.
Because thats what these people are....an average online poker player at best.

I don`t know about labeling poker moves "world class plays" but I`m very interested in crazy laydowns like this and it`s mostly because I don`t have it in me to muck a set.
I just can not do it and I don`t think I ever will, tournament or cash game.
I play a lot of Live poker and I`ve never seen a player show a laydown like this but if I ever see it I`m not letting the weirdo go untiel he spills his guts.
I`ll pay him if I have to but I need to know how he got there.
Think about it you math geeks... you might even learn something from the idiot that laydowns sets...imagine that! [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

doyle brunson and chip reese have played w/each other for longer than most people have played poker so that scenario is not comparable. for every "world class laydown" like this there are multiple weaktight players who have made similar laydowns and been shown a weaker hand. some posted the aphorism "a broken clock is right twice a day." that is a perfect description of this laydown.


edit: jen tilly made a "world class check" here. http://www.tworags.com/index.php?ACT...iew&ID=176