Donking into the raiser, *theory*

[TCA]

The examples you give in the OP dont fit with my idea of what donkbetting is at all. When I think of a donk bet I think HU OOP and lead into him.

Here what we are really looking at is how to use our relative position to squeeze the raiser and either force him to expose the strength of this hand, or more likely lay the hand down with the threat of others still to act.

They are actually very different concepts imo. It would still be a donkbet imo if the raiser has absolute position over all players in the pot and you are first to act.

[jfish]

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examples 2 and 3 are bad. 1 is good.

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I believe the exact opposite.

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you can believe what you want and i can believe what i want. after all, we are in the united states of america.

[jlocdog]

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examples 2 and 3 are bad. 1 is good.

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I believe the exact opposite.

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you can believe what you want and i can believe what i want. after all, we are in the united states of america.

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I believe the exact opposite.

[cakewalk]

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BTW which PT/PAHUD stats would best show donk-betting tendencies? High aggression frequency for flow with a relatively low flop checkraise frequency?

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for pahud a high cold call/call pfr with a high flop bet frequency seems ideal

[Black Wings]

havent read all the posts but ture has an aaweome point...

[wpr101]

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wpr101,

Every flop? All we have to do is hope they fold no pair which they have most of the time.

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This is retarded.

[jfish]

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guys first of all I guess Bobbo is talking about smart-donkbetting, not about those people that call a 4BB raise pre oop then "fire" 1BB at the pot.

Anyway I'm interested in this smart-donkbetting thread, because it's something I use quite few times (usually not with air) and I tend to respect good players donking into me, most folding if I miss the flop rather than floating.

I guess the keys to make this play profitable are:

1 - To be against a thinking original raiser, otherwise you basically have no fold equity; against a donk you should donkbet only made hands (sets, 2pairs, straights, etc...), because HE was the original raiser and won't fold anything for pride purposes (DON'T MESS WITH MY POT BRO); I'd rather checkraise a gutshot aginst a donk instead of betting oop.

2 - Like someone said you'll get yourself into troubles doing this with marginal holdings (like Bobbo advocates) if called, so I wouldn't do it against an unknown or without a plan for a raise and for any turn card that may fall.

BTW I consider "never donkbetting" a leak, I don't think you should always check oop, donkbetting often works in a deceptive-tilting way that can be profitable if correctly used (and not abused).

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vn post.

[Big_Jim]

Of these example hands, I only really like hand 2.

In hand 1, we never really have any idea where they are regardless of how they react, and if we just c/c, he'll mostly shut down when we have the best of it, and sometimes when we don't. Not to mention the fact that in a 4 handed pot, somebody has an A here a lot. Not to mention that we'll always be OOP on later streets if called. I really don't see the logic behind this bet. Overall, I'd rather just use my relative position in this hand so I can just fold after the cbet gets called by somebody else.

In hand 3, all of our outs are dirty, so we can get into too much trouble on later streets when he flats, and we make a bigger mistake if we fold the best hand to a raise.

In hand 2, the board is nice and dry, so we're likely to get flat called (sometimes even by really big hands), and our outs are clean when we hit.

[TheJared]

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wpr101,

Every flop? All we have to do is hope they fold no pair which they have most of the time.

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This is retarded.

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lol, ok. Maybe you could explain why or shut up. Isn't that the point of this thread? Seriously, the atitude of this forum is so tiring to deal with.

I think its plainly obvious that the following is true:
1) Some opponents open a lot of hands in the button/cuttoff
2) Most of the time those hands flop no pair
3) Most players can't call down with no pair
4) Leading into their pot doesn't need to work a high % of the time to be a +EV play, just like all bluffs we are laying ourselves odds b/c there is money already in the pot.

I'm not saying lead every flop but I think its clear that with the right image against most players leading is often higher EV then check/folding.

[KRANTZ]

i donk into the pfr more than almost anyone, i think.

i wish i didn't reformat my computer because i have some really really cool hands i could show.

it's really all about opponent manipulation. having a good feel for if your opponent will raise you, or call, or fold. in general, when they raise they define their hand range very narrowly. and when they call, the same is true. this is because lots of players don't really have much experience dealing with leads.

one of my old students once bluntly told me that checking to the pfr is the biggest piece of BS in poker. i'm on board with that way of thinking.

i've met/talked with a ton of successful players, at all stakes, who rarely ever lead, though. but it's a nifty weapon to have.