insane push or standard?

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
My only hesitation in making the push was trying to decide if this player was a thinking player. If he is a thinking player then a fold should be standard for him in this spot. It would be for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Temp:

What % of thinking players 3-bet THAT flop with a big pair?

Would you with a 25k stack?

[MLG]

"Just curious, but why does the fact that we are in a tournament setting affect the best line?"

Ev,
Ive long had a theory that tourney fish are different than cash fish in a very important way. Both call too much on early streets without thought to later streets (tourney guys maybe even worse about that than cash guys), but random live tourney donk...even random decent tourney guy folds to big all-ins that could put him out of the tourney way more than he should. That means that big bluffs, have a much higher chance of working, and small bluffs have a much lower chance of working. So, IMO that means raising the flop, planning to keep pounding is way more effective v. tourney guys than cash guys. Since a cash guy will decide on the turn if he will go with his hand, while a tourney guy will call the turn but fold the river a pretty high %.

In other words, I think flop raise and then pound is quite good, flop call, and play a small pot is ok. Flop raise planning to check the turn is bad bad bad.

[Temp Hutter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My only hesitation in making the push was trying to decide if this player was a thinking player. If he is a thinking player then a fold should be standard for him in this spot. It would be for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Temp:

What % of thinking players 3-bet THAT flop with a big pair?

Would you with a 25k stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right. The 3-bet should have been a clue. One problem is I do not know what his image is of me because it is still rather early in the tournament.

[Todd Terry]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My only hesitation in making the push was trying to decide if this player was a thinking player. If he is a thinking player then a fold should be standard for him in this spot. It would be for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Temp:

What % of thinking players 3-bet THAT flop with a big pair?

Would you with a 25k stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right. The 3-bet should have been a clue. One problem is I do not know what his image is of me because it is still rather early in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

I explained why I would 3-bet the flop with AA above:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

What would you guys do? I assume folding to a single raise is not an option. Call and check/fold the turn unless you hit an A?

[cero_z]

[ QUOTE ]
MLG is totally right, Temp played this hand very well and if you don't like the flop line, you may want to reexamine if you're aggressive enough for tournaments

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. DLizzle, I think you're being results-oriented by assuming that he always has an overpair when he raises pre, then bets the flop. We don't know that until he reraises.

But, I think the vast majority (~80%) of unknown ME opponents will not be able to fold QQ+ here, and for that reason, I partially agree with DLizzle about raising the flop. I think a smaller raise is better in this case, because it allows us a chance to knock out a hand that will be making a mistake by folding, while also building the pot AND giving us room to comfortably call a reraise and play on. As it was, if this was a guy who could play AA this badly, then the implied odds were there to stack him (bet like 8k on the turn, then the last 9k on the end, and he'll call down even looking at a 4-straight). So, I think the best play here is the unusual small raise, like to 1700 total.

Plus obviously if you're Temp, it's all moot, since you know you're getting there like 99% of the time. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[MLG]

cero,
i really disagree with
"the vast majority (~80%) of unknown ME opponents will not be able to fold QQ+ here,"

I think they wont fold on the flop, and probably not the turn, but very very often will on the river....if you are threatening their stack.