Free Universal Healthcare - Page 5

daveT · #41 07-12-2007, 01:28 PM

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What happens in the US if you were e.g. a factory worker and were made redundant and have been out of work for say 6m, you cannot afford insurance and you are now diagnosed with e.g. cancer. Do you really just not get treated ?

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Can someone answer this one pls ?

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Yep.

Well, it doesn't work exactly that way. I know of two cancer cases that are disturbing.

A man had cancer after working in a factory for 30 years. He had to quit his job and get treatment. He is no longer able to work. In the end, he was able to afford it, but that is because he worked at Ford. He had to liquidate his retirement plan to pay for it, and then had to wait two years to get his social security. He couldn't walk a city block. Ford happens to have one of the best health packages ever for laborers.

Well, almost....

Another person I know was diagnosed with cancer. He was selling cars at Ford. He had an HMO. He had to quit his job to get treatment. A few months later, he returned to the job, but the insurer refused to cover him anymore. He spent his entire life-saving (over 100k) on kemo therapy after liquidating everything he owned. In the end of this, he ended up living on the street for three months. Eventually, he got government housing (expedited) because of his condition.

daveT · #42 07-12-2007, 01:38 PM

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The government does regulate certain procedures and medications. I have already pointed out pregnancy. Another place is AIDS. The volunteer coorporations press for free and discounted medications for the patients.

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Dave, there's a difference between the government regulating the price and the government paying the price set by companies for the people it provides medical care for. By covering prenatal care in CA, the state of CA is not declaring that hospitals have to give it away for free. Instead, they're paying the hospitals in lieu of the pregnant women. Be careful with your words here, because the distinction is important.

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Thank you for the annotation. You are correct, I should choose my words better.

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I do believe that the people doing the research is inherently up to the challenge of beating these diseases, but when we compare the price of say a pill, and Kemo, I believe that the people with the money are going to go for what gives them profit. No matter how much you want to believe that the world will be better by medication, the condition of health care will follow stringent business and money theory when the smoke clears.

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I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that people who develop cheap, effective medication will be squelched by companies that push expensive ones? If you want to talk about stringent market theory, it would be inevitable that cheap, effective medication will triumph over expensive, less effective medication in a truly free market.

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Yes, my first statement is what I meant. Yes, in a strict money environment (vacuum), cheaper meds would triumph. Here we have doctors who's opinions are influenced.... Seriously the proof doesn't even cover only meds. It's everywhere, and I don't think I should have to explain this further.

entertainme · #43 07-12-2007, 01:57 PM

Let's also not forget that the U.S. is subsidizing the cost of new premium drugs for the rest of the world. We pay the highest prices, allowing the researchers to recover the development costs, while countries like Canada with universal care negotiate a reduced cost for the same drug in their country.

Thanir · #44 07-12-2007, 02:47 PM

Part of the problem with universal health care is the US, is those that already have good insurance plans don't want to loose what they have. They fear that going universal will just lower the quality of service from their existing plan.

I think most people are for helping out the poor/uninsured, until they find out that it could affect their own great health care package they already have.

AceLuby · #45 07-12-2007, 02:50 PM

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What I want to know is how much do the insurance companies influence the doctors and what impact do they have on the kinds of treatments prescribed to patients. (I guess I should just watch Sicko [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].)

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I think a lot. When I had surgery I had seriously 10 doctors take information from me. Just basic stuff too like medical history, whether I smoke, do drugs, whatever... when the bill came every one of those doctors had a charge on their for the visit. $400 bucks a pop.

Guess who picks up that bill, the insurance companies. It's really a terrible cycle. Doctors will take advantage of insurance companies because the insurance companies charge high premiums and pay for most of the bill and insurance companies charge high premiums because hospital bills are constantly increasing.

DrewDevil · #46 07-12-2007, 03:05 PM

MODS PLEASE LOCK THREAD OR MOVE TO POLITICS BEFORE BLOOD STARTS SPURTING OUT OF MY EYES PLZKTHX

diebitter · #47 07-12-2007, 03:16 PM

Nah, it's a good thread. You think it'd be this good in politics?

Just don't read it.

entertainme · #48 07-12-2007, 03:22 PM

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MODS PLEASE LOCK THREAD OR MOVE TO POLITICS BEFORE BLOOD STARTS SPURTING OUT OF MY EYES PLZKTHX

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Video of spurting blood please. LDO

Blarg · #49 07-12-2007, 03:55 PM

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What I want to know is how much do the insurance companies influence the doctors and what impact do they have on the kinds of treatments prescribed to patients. (I guess I should just watch Sicko [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].)

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I think a lot. When I had surgery I had seriously 10 doctors take information from me. Just basic stuff too like medical history, whether I smoke, do drugs, whatever... when the bill came every one of those doctors had a charge on their for the visit. $400 bucks a pop.

Guess who picks up that bill, the insurance companies. It's really a terrible cycle. Doctors will take advantage of insurance companies because the insurance companies charge high premiums and pay for most of the bill and insurance companies charge high premiums because hospital bills are constantly increasing.

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Insurance companies often have more say over what doctors can do than do doctors themselves.

The American system is basically adding a middleman(the insurance companies) to cut costs. Generally a poor business model.

Blarg · #50 07-12-2007, 03:56 PM

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Okay, this might be a little strong, but I find any system whereby a terminal patient has to sell stuff and probably leave debts behind for their family or whatever to get any sort of treatment or attempt at a cure to be pretty barbaric and frankly inhumane.

I think if I were put in a spot where I had something terminal, and knew I'd have to sell all the stuff I'd worked for rather than it be for my family (and probably run up a mound of debt for those I leave behind), I'd rather go jump under a train. Seriously.

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Agreed on all of that. I'd hate to be a burden to my kids and wipe out a lot of their hopes for the future because of health care concerns. It's cheaper and better for the family for you to jump off a bridge than to try to live.