1st level WSOP ME w JJ - Page 5

MEJG2 · #41 07-11-2007, 09:05 AM

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LOL AK's play is so bad, I was gonna say that QQ+ AK is even too tight a range for that line, then I read the thread. This is an awful thing to do with AK, "representing AA or KK preflop" by bloating the pot OOP and hoping to later push your villain off his hand.

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Now he has a year to think about his AK line... Hopefully he now sees how bad it was!

registrar · #42 07-11-2007, 09:39 AM

I don't like and wouldn't take AK's pf line but I don't think it is 'atrocious'. With 200BBs, minraising from EP is not a sin (it's not my style, but I think it's a style well-suuited to live DS play). I think limp/reraising is pretty gay/bad with a deepstack (OK, it's not a limp but it is really). It's not my style with any stack but it makes a lot more sense with 20-30BBs than it does when we have a long way to get to the felt/river OOP.

So, minraise/call does not seem terrible. Minraise/four-bet seems terrible. If that was the plan, I don't like it.

However, JJ's small reraise makes life awkward. Cold-callers are always going to call if we call and then we're OOP v multiple opponents so at that stage a four-bet seems somewhat valid.

So, in brief, I don't think AKs play is all that unreasonable/horrible up to the flop. Leading the flop, unless we're up against really loose players, seems suicidal.

Black Aces 518 · #43 07-11-2007, 10:51 AM

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I don't like and wouldn't take AK's pf line but I don't think it is 'atrocious'. With 200BBs, minraising from EP is not a sin (it's not my style, but I think it's a style well-suuited to live DS play). I think limp/reraising is pretty gay/bad with a deepstack (OK, it's not a limp but it is really). It's not my style with any stack but it makes a lot more sense with 20-30BBs than it does when we have a long way to get to the felt/river OOP.

So, minraise/call does not seem terrible. Minraise/four-bet seems terrible. If that was the plan, I don't like it.

However, JJ's small reraise makes life awkward. Cold-callers are always going to call if we call and then we're OOP v multiple opponents so at that stage a four-bet seems somewhat valid.

So, in brief, I don't think AKs play is all that unreasonable/horrible up to the flop. Leading the flop, unless we're up against really loose players, seems suicidal.

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it's not the minraise/4bet that makes it so bad, it's the minraise, and then small 4 bet. Neither player is folding to the dinky little 3bet (the cold caller very well might if he's smart, b/c the JJ guy could 5bet, but he's very likely not smart), if you 4 bet, jack it up to 3k or thereabouts.

registrar · #44 07-11-2007, 11:03 AM

OK, yes, the four-bet size is crap.

uclabruinz · #45 07-11-2007, 11:13 AM

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OK, yes, the the entire hand was played like crap.

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FYP.

knn05 · #46 07-11-2007, 11:56 AM

I would have folded to his 2000 re-raise pre-flop. A min raise UTG followed by a huge re-raise indicates AA or KK, and in some rare cases AK. I would have put him on KK with the pot-sized bet on the flop to keep flush chasers away. Either way, I would have never been in the hand to a 2000 over the top UTG re-raise from an initial min raise. Fold your JJ preflop!

Black Aces 518 · #47 07-11-2007, 12:02 PM

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I would have folded to his 2000 re-raise pre-flop. A min raise UTG followed by a huge re-raise indicates AA or KK, and in some rare cases AK. I would have put him on KK with the pot-sized bet on the flop to keep flush chasers away. Either way, I would have never been in the hand to a 2000 over the top UTG re-raise from an initial min raise. Fold your JJ preflop!

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I don't understand why people keep saying this. You have to call 1400 more. The pot and villain's stack are TWENTY THOUSAND. People who min-raise/dinkum 4 bet with AA or KK are never ever folding J92 flops. If you say call, and fold any non-J flop, I'm OK with that, but folding preflop is leaving $$$$$$$ on the table.

MauriceSch · #48 07-11-2007, 12:03 PM

knn05, You can't fold preflop. Of course you won't stay when you don't hit the Jack. But if you do, you will most likely get all of his chips if you set his range to KK+.

MEJG2 · #49 07-11-2007, 12:44 PM

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I would have folded to his 2000 re-raise pre-flop. A min raise UTG followed by a huge re-raise indicates AA or KK, and in some rare cases AK. I would have put him on KK with the pot-sized bet on the flop to keep flush chasers away. Either way, I would have never been in the hand to a 2000 over the top UTG re-raise from an initial min raise. Fold your JJ preflop!

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You have to call here w JJ. It's costing you 1400 and there is 4,750 in the pot already with the guy calling ahead of you. You need to win ~ 16.8k, when you flop a J; because it's ~7:1 that you hit trips. The min raiser has 18k behind and the caller has ~ 18k behind; your implied odds are very good... And even better if you put him on KK+.

You have position, you will fold if the flop does not improve your hand and someone leads at the pot.

knn05 · #50 07-11-2007, 01:24 PM

Okay, I understand everyone saying to call preflop. However, the reverse implied odds after the flop are huge if the guy UTG does indeed have KK. I personally would have put him on KK. Why else would you min raise? With AA, why not just limp and with AK I would never min raise. You've now put 2K into the pot pre-flop and another 6K after the flop for 8K, which is almost half your stack. I understand calling preflop for set value and pot odds, but calling the flop when the reverse implied odds are huge if your opponent has KK...I dunno. I do agree that a bigger re-raise preflop is necessary in this situation with JJ, but with that flop I think the reverse implied odds are too large to even consider calling the flop bet of 6K.