Interesting flop spot, 3/6

[catcher193]

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you guys fundamentally misunderstand poker if you think that the best action here is betting and calling an allin.

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WRONG, the rest of your post is very obvious, but still good.

[Josh.]

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What do ppl think of just pushing when he checks to us?

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i wouldn't have thought of this, but i really like it.

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yeah getting AJss and AKss to fold thinking they're priced out despite being favorites in a big pot would be a big coup. i don't see being c/r bluffed often at all, so i think shove is the best bet sizing

[catcher193]

I'd bet something small that "meta" pisses him off, and will be more likely to keep him off your back, when he folds, note him up and do it with air, also it could induce a C/R bluff, which will fold to a shove (incredibly good), and might induce a C/shove with a hand like AKo, or AJo, which is obviously good to be in against.
Your not looking to "flip" with an overpair here. but its certainly not worse than checking behind.

Take advantage of this flop 1 way or another.

[catcher193]

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What do ppl think of just pushing when he checks to us?

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i wouldn't have thought of this, but i really like it.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah getting AJss and AKss to fold thinking they're priced out despite being favorites in a big pot would be a big coup. i don't see being c/r bluffed often at all, so i think shove is the best bet sizing

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I'd snap call with AKss or AJss if I was villian and hero shoved, not thinking its even close.

[Josh.]

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you guys fundamentally misunderstand poker if you think that the best action here is betting and calling an allin.

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WRONG, the rest of your post is very obvious, but still good.

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all you have to do is compare the range of hands that get all the money in when you bet regular and when you shove. i think AA calls the shove for sure, as does AQ. we basically have what we're representing. the key difference is, like i wrote in my last post, that AJss and AKss will fold to a shove. i'm not quite sure how JJ reacts to a normal sized bet, but favors shoving slightly as well, since you're probably not able to shove the turn after he calls the flop. you get called by AA dn AQ and the like too often imo

that said, i do think cehcking is best here. your trips and flush outs are very disguised and i'd expect them to get paid off when you hit. it'll be impossible for villain to give us credit for a flush or trips if we get there. there are certain hands like AK that have "outs" that will cause them to go broke. and there's a clear gain in checking vs most of the hands that'll crai (or call our open shove) on the flop. i'd much rather check the flop and try to hit vs AA. if i miss, i won't lose my whole stack. if i do hit, i'm nearly guaranteed his stack

[Josh.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What do ppl think of just pushing when he checks to us?

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldn't have thought of this, but i really like it.

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah getting AJss and AKss to fold thinking they're priced out despite being favorites in a big pot would be a big coup. i don't see being c/r bluffed often at all, so i think shove is the best bet sizing

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I'd snap call with AKss or AJss if I was villian and hero shoved, not thinking its even close.

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somehow missed that AJ is double gutted. you're probably right that most people probably call AKss too. so i guess they run pretty close. i still think checking is better though

[tommo]

nevermind

[xorbie]

checking is also a viable option and prob better than bet/call.

[xorbie]

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First off, betting with 8s9s actually does get your opponent to make some 1st level mistakes. Where I refer to a 1st level mistake as doing something he wouldn't do if he knew your hand. Especially in this scenario. If you don't believe me just go through pokerstove and insert some hands that are in a wide 3 betting range that should call but probably won't in this scenario.

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i dont know about this, thats the thing. maybe you think 99 is c/f here, or T9, or AJ, but that seems to be unlikely, at least not always. betting some amount that allows you to push the turn with extra FE or betting some amoutn now that gives you extra FE or not betting at all all seem like better options.

[xorbie]

also with regard to 1st/2nd level mistakes, i think this is precisely the sort of situation that an open push or a check behind or whatever is fine because its so specific to this board and this hand.

i think that people often talk about metagame as if its helpful to have villains think "xorbie is going to do x with hand range X and y with hand range Y" whereas i tend to think its much scarier for them to know "xorbie is going to do x with hand range X and with hand range Y and im not sure when and sometimes he does y with both ranges also".

sometimes just the most +EV and strange/bizarre play can be the best, precisely because in the world of online poker villains will not have time to do pokerstove calculations and think about hand ranges as much as is optimal.