Top pair & nut flush draw in $1500 NL 6-max - Page 5

ryanghall · #41 06-10-2007, 09:33 AM

If people want to make a committing raise or push all-in, whatever, I'm sure there's really not much difference between the two. You can NOT call though. There's a very good chance your hand isn't going to be nearly as strong on the turn as it is on the flop.

Ryan

RandALLin · #42 06-10-2007, 09:43 AM

Nath, consider this hand like you are playing it in SirWatts body at the table with his image, not yours. Now, you on the other hand with your wild caveman-like image could possibly have a 6 handed table so loose that way worse calls. I think I reeeaaaally like the fiji line of 5250 cause unless he has a monster he is going to be so confused and fold the best hand alot more, along with shove the worst hand/draw.

Crispy · #43 06-10-2007, 09:48 AM

I highly doubt 3 betting is going to confuse him into shoving the worst hand/draw. And ryanghall wtf you talking about you can't call. What if your opponent has a weak ace/ flush draw, omg i think it actually got stronger!

uclabruinz · #44 06-10-2007, 12:12 PM

Wow, this seems like a shockingly easy call on the flop followed by check/call line all the way down. I think shoving the flop is awful for the reasons already mentioned. This is the kind of guy who will think that his Ax is good when you take a passive line or will give you his chips with his worse flush draw if you let him. But reraising the flop screams strength to even the biggest of donks.

JackOfSpeed · #45 06-10-2007, 01:08 PM

Pot is 6750 after Villain's flop raise. I'm not greedy, that's big enough (50% of our stack to start the hand) for me to take it down right now, even if villain is only drawing to 6 outs or less.

Our hand is still a vulnerable 1-pair hand. I understand that letting villain dump his flush draw is a huge mistake, and letting him get away from A8 or something similar sucks too, but I don't think either is as big of one as letting the hand play out as hero let it play out (let scary card hit turn, and check-fold; turned out to be a good fold though).

Move in and take it down on the flop (usually), with the added bonus of occasionally getting rid of AQ or AJ. And who knows, maybe being called by A5, A4, or a random ace (or if he's really really bad and doesn't understand pot odds at all, a worse FD; that'd be a miracle though).

The only other reasonable line is just calling, and then moving in (or bet-calling) the turn. The fives and fours are the cards we least want to see, but I think we've still got to get it in, unless you are extremely confident in your reads on this player and can check-fold when you sense super-strength.

I don't like Uclabruinz line (check it down, call all bets) simply because villain's got to be checking his random ace hands behind on the turn unless he improves or is real aggro. I hate-hate-hate letting ace 4 or ace 5 get a free turn card, especially if we are willing to call off our stack with one pair on the river

uclabruinz · #46 06-10-2007, 01:20 PM

What the heck is everyone talking about our "hand is still vulnerable"? If villain is behind, he is usually drawing to two, maybe three, outs. The risk of letting him hit those outs is far, far outweighed by getting value out of those same hands when he doesn't suck out, not to mention if one of his outs is a club giving him two pair against our flush.

JackOfSpeed · #47 06-10-2007, 01:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What the heck is everyone talking about our "hand is still vulnerable"? If villain is behind, he is usually drawing to two, maybe three, outs. The risk of letting him hit those outs is far, far outweighed by getting value out of those same hands when he doesn't suck out, not to mention if one of his outs is a club giving him two pair against our flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think we're getting any more value out of Ax/FD type hands when we check the turn and river. Might get a smallish river bet from Ax if the turn is checked through, but most live players (again, unless this guy is overly aggro) will be happy to just check this down unimproved, IMO (unless he's AT, then maybe we'll pick up a few more chips). If you really think he's going to continue to push worse hands, then obv your line is fine, but most live players in these tourneys are pretty passive with mediocre hands. His smallish flop min-raise to me either indicates a hand that has us beat (unlikely, but possible), or a hand he kinda likes but will check down if you call him.

(The only truly great scenarios here are the one you mentioned where he hits 2p and we hit a flush; or where we both hit a flush. And even in those somewhat unlikely cases we only get 1.3x the pot out of him.)

The other bad news is that he is betting again on the turn and river when he catches up with our hand, or when he already had you beat on the flop, so we're kind of getting the worst of it on both ends with your line.

uclabruinz · #48 06-10-2007, 01:34 PM

Well how to handle the turn and river is debatable, I will give you that, but doing anything other then calling the flop is awful and shoving is really, really awful.

registrar · #49 06-10-2007, 01:36 PM

I don't think there's much to choose between the two lines TBH but I'd push the flop if any action/card would see me fold the turn.

I also lead the turn if I make smaller/splitting aces and clubs a large part of his range.

UCLA, you're calling his turn shove?

All, do you check the turn? Who else calls the shove?

JackOfSpeed · #50 06-10-2007, 01:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well how to handle the turn and river is debatable, I will give you that, but doing anything other then calling the flop is awful and shoving is really, really awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

ucla, with all due respect, shoving is not as awful as check/call all bets. That line really stinks, unless you disagree with any of my assumptions I laid out, so if you are just calling the flop, give me a new turn and river plan that doesn't let villain play perfectly a lot of the time (by betting when he has you beat, and taking a free card when he doesn't).