Take the early edge ?

[WCGRider]

Dont think so : P

[karlwig]

someone limps, one raises all-in, the utg limper calls and you're even considering calling with a pair of eights?

i wouldn't even call with jacks! Yes, you cannot give micro players too much credit - but calling this so early would be sick IMO (unless you have reads blablabla)

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
someone limps, one raises all-in, the utg limper calls and you're even considering calling with a pair of eights?

i wouldn't even call with jacks! Yes, you cannot give micro players too much credit - but calling this so early would be sick IMO (unless you have reads blablabla)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd recommend reading the rest of the thread.

[Mingdu]

I'm sure he did

[bobbycharles]

This is an excellent thread; many, many thanks to Cornell and Sherman for opening my eyes a bit here.

My initial reaction to OP was insta muck. In action, I would do just that, without even thinking about it.... autopilot play. I now realize, although on some level I knew this, it's not about ONE tourney life, it's about ongoing cEV/$EV. I'm afraid until now, I've been one of those exploited ones that values tourney life more than I should and pass up these +EV situations.

NH Sirs.

[bobbycharles]

Ok, so it's 30 minutes later and I'm laying in bed thinking about Bonds' WSOP trip report and imagining sitting next to Shannon Elizabeth and, no wait, that was last night.

So it's tonight, and I'm thinking about this hand, and it occurs to me (after it occurs to me I think about this game too damn much) that we're talking Micro MTT here. So for Cornell and Sherman and everybody else.....we're now at the WSOP ME and the same hand occurs. Now it is understood that early in the ME, things can be a little silly, but don't we pass up the edge here, if any. One would presume that the push, and the limp/call have gotta be a narrower range than a Micro On-line tourney right?

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so it's 30 minutes later and I'm laying in bed thinking about Bonds' WSOP trip report and imagining sitting next to Shannon Elizabeth and, no wait, that was last night.

So it's tonight, and I'm thinking about this hand, and it occurs to me (after it occurs to me I think about this game too damn much) that we're talking Micro MTT here. So for Cornell and Sherman and everybody else.....we're now at the WSOP ME and the same hand occurs. Now it is understood that early in the ME, things can be a little silly, but don't we pass up the edge here, if any. One would presume that the push, and the limp/call have gotta be a narrower range than a Micro On-line tourney right?

[/ QUOTE ]

nobody would limp-call this all in with anything other than AA/KK in the WSOP (that is because JJ/QQ which might call are always open raising). I would have to imagine that the shover also has AA here if this was the ME.

Regardless, we are crushed by their ranges and should fold

[All_In_Olly]

I know this thread is pretty much done, just wanted to ask one last thing.

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that one player is capable of shoving with 56s and another is capable of limp-calling with 9To means that those hands are in their ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously these hands are in the ranges of these 2 particular players, however we don't know that before we see their cards.

Do we not have to assume that the range for UTG is that of the average player who would limp all in and the range for CO is that of the average player who would open all in?

By this I mean we include the group of really awful players who would make these moves with 52o, but also the group of players Fiji said he was in, who only do it with JJ+.

The range would then be some kind of average.

So to come up with a range we need to take a view on how many players belong in each group, and if there are any other groups, and what ranges these might have.

Maybe I'm way off track on this, and if I am please say, but in any case I made some assumptions last night to come up with a range which I stoved. I'd be interested in what experienced 4/180 players think about these;

At the start of an average 4/180 tournament, you have;

good players 10
moderately good 20
some idea 30
very loose/maniac like 60
playing randomly 60
(These numbers aren't exact as I can't remember exactly what I had last night)

UTG and CO can only belong to the last 3 groups, which I've assigned ranges of;
1)top 10% of hands
2)top 25% of hands
3)top 60% of hands
, respectively.

So the average range would be top 42% of hands, which 88 comfortably has an edge on, and so my preconception of only going in with JJ+ is way off.

It looks like 77 has an edge as well, though I think 66 becomes -eV. Didn't look at unpaired high cards.

Obviously I'm making some sweeping assumptions here that could be way off so would really appreciate some feedback. Also you can of course dice the groups up even more but as long as your average range assumptions are good it won't make a difference (e.g. of the 60 players playing randomly, maybe only the last 10 would actually go all in with 52o, so the average range shouldn't include this hand).

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so it's 30 minutes later and I'm laying in bed thinking about Bonds' WSOP trip report and imagining sitting next to Shannon Elizabeth and, no wait, that was last night.

So it's tonight, and I'm thinking about this hand, and it occurs to me (after it occurs to me I think about this game too damn much) that we're talking Micro MTT here. So for Cornell and Sherman and everybody else.....we're now at the WSOP ME and the same hand occurs. Now it is understood that early in the ME, things can be a little silly, but don't we pass up the edge here, if any. One would presume that the push, and the limp/call have gotta be a narrower range than a Micro On-line tourney right?

[/ QUOTE ]

nobody would limp-call this all in with anything other than AA/KK in the WSOP (that is because JJ/QQ which might call are always open raising). I would have to imagine that the shover also has AA here if this was the ME.

Regardless, we are crushed by their ranges and should fold

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[TheFoxNL]

thanks for those very big explenations to this post
also on a note this wasnt a 4,40 but a $1 MTT

thanks guys