Ban programs (PT, PAHUD, AHK, ...)

[Reef]

arguments for banning pokertracker and AHK is plain retarded

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Everyone has equal access to get PT, AHK, and HUDs ... these are not bots. they do not make decisions for players.

[questions]

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It is against the integrity of the game IMHO but the poker community seems to be ok with that. I am simply stating my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that it is against the integrity of the game, but poker is "supposed" to be played in the flesh, not on computers. So you are also compromising the integrity of the game by playing on your computer.

I also agree that it is harder to win against those who are employing those softwares, but try to look at it philosophically that they are making your game better by making you play even better, playing only solid hands, draws, etc.

[questions]

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Everyone has equal access to get PT, AHK, and HUDs ... these are not bots. they do not make decisions for players.

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Well, not entirely true - people who use them are assisted in making more effective decisions. And, on the flipside, neither do bots actually make decisions - they merely execute pre-programmed digital commands.

[Reef]

"people who use them are assisted in making more effective decisions"

the numbers take getting used to and correctly interpreting .. I'm sure many players have PAhud and end up playing less correctly as a result of it.

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"neither do bots actually make decisions"

let me guess, you're a nit

[questions]

[ QUOTE ]
let me guess, you're a nit

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm of Scandinavian ethnicity. Is that a problem?

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
What are they?? I'll still be playing if you guys use PT,PAHUD, ... but I think I'd win more if you guys didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it's our fault you choose to play at a disadvantage now? Should there also be a limit to the number of times we can raise per orbit, because too much raising makes the game unfriendly?

[Khaos4k]

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[ QUOTE ]
What are they?? I'll still be playing if you guys use PT,PAHUD, ... but I think I'd win more if you guys didn't.

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So it's our fault you choose to play at a disadvantage now? Should there also be a limit to the number of times we can raise per orbit, because too much raising makes the game unfriendly?

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Introduce the home game rule of no check raising?

[Nairb]

OK Im gonna chime in even though I said I would not, again. I agree totally that any software that attaches to the poker software should, IMHO, be prohibited. I would equate these programs with bringing a webcam to a B&M casino to tape your poker sessions to review and take notes on later. Online poker should provide as close as possible the experience of playing live. For many avid players like myself a good regular game in a B&M casino are hours away. I do frequently play those games and do not want the handicap that getting used to these software aids would put on my game. I have no problem with tracking software that you MANUALLY input info from HH or observations during a game but datamining and HUD are like "soft cheating". While allowed they do present an unfair advantage for the user. With a confident game and sound reasoning abilities why would one need these crutches. I track my winnings and losses to establish ROI, hourly income etc.. but think this is a far cry from HUD and such. Why do you think all those fish we used to enjoy are systematically swimming away? I am far from a pro but feel I play a sound game and just want to know I am playing on as even a field as there can be online. The fact that these sites know about and allow this type of assistance will hurt online poker and our cause more than we can even imagine.

[ShaneP]

One of the reasons I kind of like them is at the levels I play (low NL) there's so many people that come in and out, it becomes really hard to keep track of everyone, or even just the 'regulars'.

The way I see it, a B+M setting is between the two extremes that on-line allows. No HUD/PT means that (for me) I wouldn't be able to remember how people play at all just based on their names--there's so many players out there, and the possibility of really similar names. With PT, I've got an eidetic memory. In between the extremes is the B+M setting, where people may get names (or nicknames) but also faces and other things that can help remind me of their play.

Additionally, given the usual shorter sessions some people play on line (20-30 hands), it's hard to get much of a read on them, where B+M you'll eventually see a lot more hands.

Just my 4cents...

Shane

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
OK Im gonna chime in even though I said I would not, again. I agree totally that any software that attaches to the poker software should, IMHO, be prohibited. I would equate these programs with bringing a webcam to a B&M casino to tape your poker sessions to review and take notes on later. Online poker should provide as close as possible the experience of playing live. For many avid players like myself a good regular game in a B&M casino are hours away. I do frequently play those games and do not want the handicap that getting used to these software aids would put on my game. I have no problem with tracking software that you MANUALLY input info from HH or observations during a game but datamining and HUD are like "soft cheating". While allowed they do present an unfair advantage for the user. With a confident game and sound reasoning abilities why would one need these crutches. I track my winnings and losses to establish ROI, hourly income etc.. but think this is a far cry from HUD and such. Why do you think all those fish we used to enjoy are systematically swimming away? I am far from a pro but feel I play a sound game and just want to know I am playing on as even a field as there can be online. The fact that these sites know about and allow this type of assistance will hurt online poker and our cause more than we can even imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

A) Paragraphs are your friend

B) Online poker is similar but different from B&M. You can't get "tells" online. You get stats and ranges. This is similar.

C) The people who use PT/PAHUD are the people who would likely pay attention to betting patterns and tells playing live, whereas the people who don't, wouldn't.

D) Re: "the fish swimming away" this is about as bad an example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy as I've seen in a while. PAHUD was around for YEARS, and the fish didn't "begin swimming away" until they couldn't get money on the sites. Obviously, PAHUD is responsible, UIGEA-what?

E) You want an "even playing field?" What's to stop you from using the same tools? I've read SSHE and HEPFAP, so I have more knowledge than most of the people who walk through the doors of a cardroom. Should I be banned because I am not playing on a level field?

F) You "play a sound game?" Then why are you worried about PAHUD? More likely, you play a predictable game, which people pick up on. Play better, work harder to improve, stop whining about "soft cheating".