zomg playalong: KQs! - Page 5

Douglas Leslie · #41 05-23-2007, 03:08 PM

Taggro has given off a classic tell here (assuming that he is not sufficiently devious to give out a false one). When he checks his cards it means that they are probably different suits of the same colour and he cannot remember which way round. That means that he has a flush draw but needed to check whether or not it was to the nuts. I think that there is a very strong chance that he has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here. That would be consistent with his pre-flop raise and flop call. Once the betting is three to him on the turn he decides to four bet with his monster draw. Obviously he could not do this unless his flush draw was headed by the ace as opposed to the queen, hence his peek at his hand. The opening bet and 3 bet could mean two pair or a set, so you are not necessarily dead here. Given that it is possible to construct hands that you beat, I think that you have to call this.

fretelöo · #42 05-23-2007, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Taggro has given off a classic tell here (assuming that he is not sufficiently devious to give out a false one). When he checks his cards it means that they are probably different suits of the same colour and he cannot remember which way round. That means that he has a flush draw but needed to check whether or not it was to the nuts. I think that there is a very strong chance that he has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here. That would be consistent with his pre-flop raise and flop call. Once the betting is three to him on the turn he decides to four bet with his monster draw. Obviously he could not do this unless his flush draw was headed by the ace as opposed to the queen, hence his peek at his hand. The opening bet and 3 bet could mean two pair or a set, so you are not necessarily dead here. Given that it is possible to construct hands that you beat, I think that you have to call this.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I very much agree to this all, I have to conclude that we have to CAP (i.e. 5bet) it. We might be drawing dead to dumb guys made flush, but there's still a chance that he's a) well, just dumb or b) has turned a str8 himself, has some stupid 2pr, a set or whatever.
And if taggro's tell is as reliable as you make it seem, we must charge him the max.

Buzz-cp · #43 05-23-2007, 03:24 PM

I just call the flop bet. Tag could be raising the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on turn. I call down.

Man of Means · #44 05-23-2007, 03:28 PM

This turn action is the pukiest I've seen posted in a while. I am not giving Taggro credit for a flush, because it doesn't seem like there are too many diamond hands that wouldn't raise the flop either for a free card or equity. He knows what to do with KQ or AQ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on those flops. With the action and "check suits" tell, KQ with one diamond is his most likely hand here.

The other guy. Can we put enough sets, two pairs, and JxXd in his range to call here? I think so, with this huge pot. Without "being there" I don't feel there's enough evidence to fold the turn.

Douglas Leslie · #45 05-23-2007, 03:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Taggro has given off a classic tell here (assuming that he is not sufficiently devious to give out a false one). When he checks his cards it means that they are probably different suits of the same colour and he cannot remember which way round. That means that he has a flush draw but needed to check whether or not it was to the nuts. I think that there is a very strong chance that he has A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here. That would be consistent with his pre-flop raise and flop call. Once the betting is three to him on the turn he decides to four bet with his monster draw. Obviously he could not do this unless his flush draw was headed by the ace as opposed to the queen, hence his peek at his hand. The opening bet and 3 bet could mean two pair or a set, so you are not necessarily dead here. Given that it is possible to construct hands that you beat, I think that you have to call this.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I very much agree to this all, I have to conclude that we have to CAP (i.e. 5bet) it. We might be drawing dead to dumb guys made flush, but there's still a chance that he's a) well, just dumb or b) has turned a str8 himself, has some stupid 2pr, a set or whatever.
And if taggro's tell is as reliable as you make it seem, we must charge him the max.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am honoured by your trust in my hand reading! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
Given that opener will probably cap anyway if he has a flush, I suppose there is an argument for doing it ourselves just in case he hasn't and we have guessed Taggro's hand correctly.

Douglas Leslie · #46 05-23-2007, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This turn action is the pukiest I've seen posted in a while. I am not giving Taggro credit for a flush, because it doesn't seem like there are too many diamond hands that wouldn't raise the flop either for a free card or equity. He knows what to do with KQ or AQ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on those flops. With the action and "check suits" tell, KQ with one diamond is his most likely hand here.

The other guy. Can we put enough sets, two pairs, and JxXd in his range to call here? I think so, with this huge pot. Without "being there" I don't feel there's enough evidence to fold the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he had KQ he wouldn't really need to know which one was the diamond, would he? Surely he would just raise the turn regardless?

Man of Means · #47 05-23-2007, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he had KQ he wouldn't really need to know which one was the diamond, would he? Surely he would just raise the turn regardless?

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems like a logical conclusion but maybe he wanted to make sure he has the high diamond before attempting to trap some overcallers ? i.e. When he has a diamond the play goes from protecting a vulnerable straight to getting max value from a straight with a redraw to a flush.

BigBadBabar · #48 05-23-2007, 03:48 PM

okay without being mean, raise your hand if you're posting in this thread and haven't played a lot of live poker.

5betting the turn is beyond spew.

Douglas Leslie · #49 05-23-2007, 03:53 PM

"That seems like a logical conclusion but maybe he wanted to make sure he has the high diamond before attempting to trap some overcallers ? i.e. When he has a diamond the play goes from protecting a vulnerable straight to getting max value from a straight with a redraw to a flush."

That's possible. I did consider KdQh as a possible holding before my earlier post but felt that AdQh was slightly more consistent with his betting. Either way, we shouldn't be folding this.

Douglas Leslie · #50 05-23-2007, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
okay without being mean, raise your hand if you're posting in this thread and haven't played a lot of live poker.

5betting the turn is beyond spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's the "hands up" smiley when you need it?
I suppose it might be spew if dumb guy was going to call the four bet with a small flush, but more likely he is going to cap anyway. If he doesn't have a flush, capping probably nets us three extra BBs. I don't think that Taggro would be checking his cards if he had two diamonds, so is capping really so bad?