Poker = A legitimate profession - please help PROVE this!!!!

[slik]

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I never understood the whole "poker does nothing for society argument."

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It's not just that it doesn't do anything. This would imply that it is neutral, which it is not. It is negative to society, as are all gambling institutions that thrive on people's addictions -- not all that different than drugs.

[good2cu]

Do you all consider traders/brokers/hedge funders etc. leeches/hustlers etc.?

Because these people are extactly the same as poker players.

Not saying they aren't hustlers but something to keep in midn.

[slik]

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Do you all consider traders/brokers/hedge funders etc. leeches/hustlers etc.?

Because these people are extactly the same as poker players.

Not saying they aren't hustlers but something to keep in midn.

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I am somewhat unfamiliar with brokers and traders, so if you can inform me on their unethical practices perhaps you can enlighten me. As far as I know, they basically buy and sell stocks etc. and either charge a flat fee per transaction or get commission based on a %. Is there anything else I should know?

[Taso]

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You are making the argument that the entertainment industry is a good thing for society. This does not explain how Mr. random internet pro contributes to society.

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Entertainers. Brittney spears, brad pitt, michael jordan, the beatles. All motivational speakers.

Could you please explain what ANY of these guys mentioned above has contributed to society, or done, except entertain others, by music, speaking, or being watched bouncing a ball?

ps, I do not consider donating a miniscule amount of their income to a worthy cause as being a 'contribution to society'

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You really cannot see the effect of the Beatles on the world? Aside from compleltly changing and influencing the music that exists, they changed the way people think, talk, dress, act, etc. This is what the great entertainers do, the ones that go down as legends like Elvis Presley and the Beatles. The inspired a cultural revolution; or were at least a substantial factor in it.

Michael Jordan has influenced so many children to do their best at everything, to stay in school, to get involved in their communities.

These people do a lot more than just "bounce a ball" or "sing", good or bad.

[einbert]

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Michael Jordan has influenced so many children to do their best at everything, to stay in school, to get involved in their communities.

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[good2cu]

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Do you all consider traders/brokers/hedge funders etc. leeches/hustlers etc.?

Because these people are extactly the same as poker players.

Not saying they aren't hustlers but something to keep in midn.

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I am somewhat unfamiliar with brokers and traders, so if you can inform me on their unethical practices perhaps you can enlighten me. As far as I know, they basically buy and sell stocks etc. and either charge a flat fee per transaction or get commission based on a %. Is there anything else I should know?

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Brokers for the most part know nothing about the stock market. They charge a comission on all trades. Therefore, they encourage active trading when their cilents would be much better off buying low cost index funds and holding for 10 years.

TradeRs and fund mangers are playing a negative sum game where the make money off people less intelligent off them same as poker players do.

[slik]

I see. It seems that brokers are more analogous to dealers. They get paid to provide a service - sorta similar to any middleman selling goods or providing a service.

Traders and fund managers invest their money in a similar way that a professional poker player might. Both take into consideration risks/rewards etc. so as to make the most profitable decision. The main arguement for poker pros being hustlers is not an investment issue. It's that many pros are cut throat and use every advantage they can get without regards to fairness - i.e. they angle shoot whenever possible, deceive the fish by complementing them
on their bad plays and making them think that they have a better chance than they really do, even purposely saying mean things to get them on tilt, and constantly try to solicit weaker players to come to their games. I'm not saying all poker players are like this; after all, the overwhelming majority are losers, and by definition cannot be pros. But a great many of the successful pros use every advantage (ethical or not) that they can get. This is not even going into colluding, mechanics, soft playing etc.

Traders, on the other hand, usually profit/lose based on a complementing transaction. The reason they are not looked down upon by society is not because they are not "hustling", but rather because it is a passive form. If there was no angleshooting, purposely tilting, mechanical dealers, cheating etc., poker, too, would fall into this passive hustling category ... but there are plenty of illegitamate card rooms that I choose not to frequent for fear of being "hustled" (not because I fear they are better players than me, but bc I do not think the game is fair).

[good2cu]

Most people on this forum are online poker professionals who play 8 tables at a time with chat off and don't do any of this huslting you speak of. But I also see your points about some live pros.

[Taso]

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Michael Jordan has influenced so many children to do their best at everything, to stay in school, to get involved in their communities.

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lol, you guys just not know anything about #23?

[swingdoc]

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Do you all consider traders/brokers/hedge funders etc. leeches/hustlers etc.?

Because these people are extactly the same as poker players.


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God, I was waiting for someone to say something stupid like this. Let's take the most simple example of stocks in a company - why do companies sell stocks? In order to gain more capital to increase research, production, marketing or any of the hundreds of other fundamental needs. Is buying a stock net positive or negative EV for the economy as a whole. Obviously positive, as these transactions allows companies to grow and evolve much more quickly than they otherwise could.

What do the people you listed do? Ultimately, they provide the intermediary between the public masses and the companies who want to sell their own stock. They are absolutely no different than the local grocery store or restaurant employees (except for the obvious difference in salary).

How abous sports stars and singers and authors and all those other entertainers (I'm going to exclude mimes from this group, as they are obviously evil and deserve to be burned over a large mass of open water so they don't return from the dead to continue their desruction of our society). These people provide a product - a product that really does not differ at all from, say, toys or video games. It's a product that is created solely to improve the quality of our lives. Admittedly, some do this better than others and some actually fail completely and make our lives worse (yes, you, Courtney Love).

Now, what exactly does an internet pro provide others in exchange for his money earned? A service? No. A product? Well, maybe you could argue that, but I rather doubt it. The average joe doesn't need a single internet pro to play against, at least no more or less than the internet pro needs the average joe to play against. Since the two are essentially providing the same "service" to each other, neither "deserves" to profit off of this interaction. If anyone is providing an actual product here, it is the online cardroom. This is why some people object rather strongly to poker (Again, people come up with lots of crazy and not so crazy reasons to oppose poker, this is just one reason). The entire job of a poker pro is to outplay his opponents and give nothing back in return. It's as simple as that.