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#41
03-09-2007, 04:41 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a joke? I believe a basis of economic analysis, Austrian or otherwise, is that people act rationally to satisfy their preferences (maybe Austrian economics sees it the other way around). Obviously, I would rationally prefer to be a free rider. I think we need to have a better way to resolve free rider problems than just saying "free riders are evil!" [/ QUOTE ] I don't think free riders are evil. If you don't want someone getting a free ride off of your resources, don't give it to them. 
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#42
03-09-2007, 04:41 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Don't welfare programs pay people to be professional free riders? [/ QUOTE ] No, the point of welfare is to provide assistance to people who are incapable of providing for themselves. This includes impoverished children, the elderly, and the disabled. For the most part, you can't get welfare if you are able-bodied and have no dependents. [/ QUOTE ] So as long as only some people are allowed to free ride, it's not free riding?
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#43
03-09-2007, 04:42 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
Hijack!
Now I'm posting PVN's thoughts 30 mins before he does. no wonder AC seems cult like to outsiders [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#44
03-09-2007, 04:43 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I'm not giving less "than I should". Let's say that a charity or government organization X provides me with some indirect utility. For instance, for every $100 that this charity receives, I get $2 worth of utility. Obviously, I would not voluntarily give $100, because I would be losing $98 in utility. But if a law were proposed that said "You and 99 other people have to give $100 to X," I would gladly support it, because this law would cost me $100, but generate $10,000 for X, which provide me with U=$200, for a net gain of U=$100. [/ QUOTE ] Why not just force the other 99 people to give the money and not give anything. Then you're getting a net gain of U = $198. Man I've just doubled your utility right there. I'm awesome! [/ QUOTE ] Because I don't have the power to do this, because other people would never accept a state in which I am allowed to do this. [/ QUOTE ] So if you *did* have the power to do that, you would? [/ QUOTE ] Given the utility stipulations I have listed above, yes. [ QUOTE ] You're in a room with an old lady. She has some number of gold Krugerrands in her pocket. You're given a baseball bat and total immunity for the next three minutes. Do you beat her up and take the money? [/ QUOTE ] No. My utility is not defined purely by money. There are psychic gains/costs as well, and in this case, the psychic costs would far outweigh the monetary gains.
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#45
03-09-2007, 04:47 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Don't welfare programs pay people to be professional free riders? [/ QUOTE ] No, the point of welfare is to provide assistance to people who are incapable of providing for themselves. This includes impoverished children, the elderly, and the disabled. For the most part, you can't get welfare if you are able-bodied and have no dependents. [/ QUOTE ] So as long as only some people are allowed to free ride, it's not free riding? [/ QUOTE ] There are probably still some free riders, but the system still does a lot more good than harm, and most of the people helped are not free riders. Some people may disagree with this, and that is why we have an established political process to resolve such disagreements.
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#46
03-09-2007, 04:49 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
[ QUOTE ]
Hijack! Now I'm posting PVN's thoughts 30 mins before he does. no wonder AC seems cult like to outsiders [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] I've noticed this. Part of problem here is my reading/posting workflow - I read posts by people I'm likely to disagree with first, respond to them, then go back and read all of the other posts.
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#47
03-09-2007, 04:53 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
I've basically said everything there is to say here. I am, however still waiting for answers to the following:
1) Why is it OK to force other people to pay for stuff you want if you get some magical number of other people to agree with you? 2) What's morally different about providing hookers and blow? 3) Does might make right?
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#48
03-09-2007, 04:54 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Don't welfare programs pay people to be professional free riders? [/ QUOTE ] No, the point of welfare is to provide assistance to people who are incapable of providing for themselves. This includes impoverished children, the elderly, and the disabled. For the most part, you can't get welfare if you are able-bodied and have no dependents. [/ QUOTE ] So as long as only some people are allowed to free ride, it's not free riding? [/ QUOTE ] There are probably still some free riders, but the system still does a lot more good than harm, and most of the people helped are not free riders. Some people may disagree with this, and that is why we have an established political process to resolve such disagreements. [/ QUOTE ] What is a free rider, in your book?
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#50
03-09-2007, 04:57 PM
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Re: Question for ACists about charity/welfare
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Don't welfare programs pay people to be professional free riders? [/ QUOTE ] No, the point of welfare is to provide assistance to people who are incapable of providing for themselves. This includes impoverished children, the elderly, and the disabled. For the most part, you can't get welfare if you are able-bodied and have no dependents. [/ QUOTE ] So as long as only some people are allowed to free ride, it's not free riding? [/ QUOTE ] There are probably still some free riders, but the system still does a lot more good than harm, and most of the people helped are not free riders. [/ QUOTE ] Most of them are not free riders? Where does the money come from? They give it in taxes and then it comes back in services of equal value? I think not. If I pay $10 and you pay $90, and we each get the $100 service exclusively for the two of us, am I "free" rididng? I mean, I paid SOMETHING so I guess I can't be free-riding. [ QUOTE ] Some people may disagree with this, and that is why we have an established political process to resolve such disagreements. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, it does a fine job. I disagree with giving my money to other people, where is the complaint department on Capitol Hill where I can get this situation resolved?
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