self censorship

[NLSoldier]

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"The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying."

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Maybe I'm just not paying enough attention but I was under the impression that the biggest complaint against the war is the unneccesary loss of american lives. wouldnt american soldiers not pulling the trigger merely increase the amount of them that die? I guess you could argue that if no soldiers would fight then bush would have been forced to pull out or never send them in the first place, but then what happens when there is a legit threat and it is left up to a bunch of enlisted people to decide if their morality tells them whether they should fight or not.

fwiw i supported the war at the beginning and no longer do, but i do know that i am still sure as hell am glad that its not me thats over there and that if it was me i sure as hell wouldnt want my fellow americans blaming me for doing my job.

[limon]

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Limon - Don't really care about your reasons. I support the war and the troops.


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cool. you support the war and the troops. do you understand why not supporting the war while claiming to support the troops is the most gutless and intellectually dishonest position a person can take? i dont support the war and dont support the tools being used for that war. do you always support the troops if they are following orders? do you believe orders from a civilian buffoon supercede free will? sun tzu said a true warrior disobeys orders from an untrained/uninformed/unjust ruler...can this ever be true for you?

[Howard Treesong]

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One of the harmless ones I have are that Filipino women are fierce.

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I unabashedly confirm that stereotype, having now spent almost a decade with Mrs. Treesong.

[XXXNoahXXX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limon - Don't really care about your reasons. I support the war and the troops.


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cool. you support the war and the troops. do you understand why not supporting the war while claiming to support the troops is the most gutless and intellectually dishonest position a person can take? i dont support the war and dont support the tools being used for that war. do you always support the troops if they are following orders? do you believe orders from a civilian buffoon supercede free will? sun tzu said a true warrior disobeys orders from an untrained/uninformed/unjust ruler...can this ever be true for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to understand that when most people say they "Support the Troops" they are not saying that they support the military operations being carried out by them. For most people its a clean and easy way of saying "I hope they don't all come home in boxes."

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the phrase "self-censorship" is inapt. Editing one's own expressions, for whatever reason, is not censorship imo.

And the invocation of "censorship" strikes me as a cowardly advance against some other who can't handle freedom of speech-- so I the victim am double wronged, not only am I being suppressed, but I'm forced into being my own suppressor.

Anyway. I often don't express my thoughts on this or that (many subjects) for many of the reasons already provided in this thread.

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two quotes are spot on:

"I'm not for the war. And being against the war and saying you support the troops is one of the wussiest positions the pacifists have ever taken -- and they're wussy by definition. It's as if the one lesson they took away from Vietnam wasn't to avoid foreign conflicts with no pressing national interest but to remember to throw a parade afterward."

and

"The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying."

much of the rest can be quibbled w/, added to or simply discarded.

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The first quote is irrelevant, I assume, because neither the author or you are pacifist-- in which case, a direct refutation of the distinction between "jus in bello" and "jus ad bellum" would be necessary.

The second quote strikes me as incoherent.

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the concepts expressed in these quotes are clear and easy to understand. dont get too smart. see my response to boris for further dissection of these issues.

[shemp]

[ QUOTE ]
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Limon - Don't really care about your reasons. I support the war and the troops.


[/ QUOTE ]

cool. you support the war and the troops. do you understand why not supporting the war while claiming to support the troops is the most gutless and intellectually dishonest position a person can take? i dont support the war and dont support the tools being used for that war. do you always support the troops if they are following orders? do you believe orders from a civilian buffoon supercede free will? sun tzu said a true warrior disobeys orders from an untrained/uninformed/unjust ruler...can this ever be true for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Troops", as the term is typically used, don't get orders from the President-- that's not how the chain of command works.

I confess I'm a bit unclear why being against the war but not against the soldiers is the "the most gutless and intellectually dishonest position a person can take" -- but probably best to stay on target for the general thread idea.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limon - Don't really care about your reasons. I support the war and the troops.


[/ QUOTE ]

cool. you support the war and the troops. do you understand why not supporting the war while claiming to support the troops is the most gutless and intellectually dishonest position a person can take? i dont support the war and dont support the tools being used for that war. do you always support the troops if they are following orders? do you believe orders from a civilian buffoon supercede free will? sun tzu said a true warrior disobeys orders from an untrained/uninformed/unjust ruler...can this ever be true for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to understand that when most people say they "Support the Troops" they are not saying that they support the military operations being carried out by them. For most people its a clean and easy way of saying "I hope they don't all come home in boxes."

[/ QUOTE ]

i cant support that position. from squashing slave rebellions to native american genocide to institutionalized torture at abu grahib there a many instances where the perp of these crimes deserves no better than a box. they endager myself and my freedom and have already surendered all that make them human.

[Howard Treesong]

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"The truth is that people who pull triggers are ultimately responsible, whether they're following orders or not. An army of people making individual moral choices may be inefficient, but an army of people ignoring their morality is horrifying.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely disagree with this view. Part of my objection is practical, which is to say that permitting moral choice among combat soldiers will vastly increase our own casualties. And I also disagree because the statement implicitly assumes the immorality of this war, and thus that our soldiers are doing just that. I suspect that a substantial portion of the military is in favor of the war. Go read Ilario Pantano's "Warlord" for a rather different picture than you'll get from the LA times.

I do think the other observation (that it's hypocritical to support the troops but oppose the war) has some force.

[limon]

"Troops", as the term is typically used, don't get orders from the President-- that's not how the chain of command works."

you're getting too smart again.

[IggyWH]

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i cant support that position. from squashing slave rebellions to native american genocide to institutionalized torture at abu grahib there a many instances where the perp of these crimes deserves no better than a box. they endager myself and my freedom and have already surendered all that make them human.

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limon,

I apologize, partially because I said I wouldn't reply to you and partially because I opened this can of worms by asking you to express your opinion.

You seem like an articulate, smart man. However, what I have bolded, makes zero sense to me. As I'm sure you know, you have your life as it is now and that freedom because of the same troops you are chastising.