rethinking a standard bet spot

[Hoopster81]

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6) BECAUSE WHAT ELSE ARE YOU CHECK CALLING WITH HERE?

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This is pretty much the crux of it IMO.

I am virtually always betting here, mostly just because that's what I do.

[DJ Sensei]

does it make a difference that because villains are unknown to you, you are unknown to villains?

[TheJared]

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does it make a difference that because villains are unknown to you, you are unknown to villains?

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Yes because when we check and then don't check raise we can't have AQ, 33, AK, or basically any hand that scares an opponent. Whenever people c/c flops at midstakes NL I auto put them on weak top pair hands/draws. I assume that most other people do as well. Betting leaves hand totally undefined, c/cing totally defines our hand.

Thoughts?

[dtan05]

Ok, another reason for betting is so you can two barrel that [censored]! Think about it. If it goes checked through first street, the A will probably call later two streets assuming he has one. However, if you fire all three streets, that Ax is usually gonna fold. thoughts?

[DJ Sensei]

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Yes because when we check and then don't check raise we can't have AQ, 33, AK, or basically any hand that scares an opponent. Whenever people c/c flops at midstakes NL I auto put them on weak top pair hands/draws. I assume that most other people do as well. Betting leaves hand totally undefined, c/cing totally defines our hand.

Thoughts?

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you're right that c/c defines our hand as a draw here. but they dont expect us to have the ace too. therefore, we might get 2 streets of bluffs out of Qx or air because they think they can push us off of our hand. that, or a river bluff from another busted flush draw trying to chase us off.

on the flip side of that, we might also be taken to valuetown a few streets by better aces or whatever. but, when we lead, we usually end up paying at least 2 streets against those hands too.

so, good points, but theres more to it than that

[adanthar]

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Ok, another reason for betting is so you can two barrel that [censored]! Think about it. If it goes checked through first street, the A will probably call later two streets assuming he has one. However, if you fire all three streets, that Ax is usually gonna fold. thoughts?

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If we get called on the flop and turn, I hate readless betting on the river so this is sort of ugly. besides, trying to get people to fold OMG AN ACE is hard at the best of times.

Also, I check call AK here sometimes vs aggro buttons, because I can.

Neither of these are reasons to always check or bet though, just throwing it out there.

[aejones]

DJ, i thought about this when a hand like this came up today.. and the more i think about it, the more i think that it's ridiculous to check here. There are just too many times I'll double barrel this board or bet with a worse draw or bet a big ace or bet top set; the only think checking ever does it get someone to take a stab at it becuase they don't think we'll check a big hand on a draw heavy board, in which case I want to check raise anyways because I want absolutely as much money as friggin possible to go in on that flop.

[Hoopster81]

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does it make a difference that because villains are unknown to you, you are unknown to villains?

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not really

maybe it should

[Hoopster81]

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There are just too many times I'll double barrel this board

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exactly

and with this hand, not only am I betting this flop by default but I am firing the turn by default as well (assuming 1 caller - if they both call I would check it).

[BobboFitos]

yawn, cbet.

or, if you want to be tricky, min bet.