AAAAAAAAARGH!

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
With the pot still 3handed I raise this every time, simply because check/folding raggy flops is giving up a lot, and if I'm going to bet the flop UI I'd rather be trying to steal a bigger pot.

Against multiple limpers I'd be more inclined to complete and see a flop first.

In your OP hand, if you call the turn you're right that you have to call that river. But you shouldn't call the turn against most people.

EDIT: Another note on the pfr, it helps if you learn that sometimes it's ok not to cbet. If you're the type of a person that has to keep betting until you get raised regardless of the board then it's a lot worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to admit, heads up there are few times when I'll check a flop if I've raised preflop. The turn is different and depends on the board, player and position. Can you give some examples where you would check a flop unimproved heads up?

[neeeel]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is a third part of this. In this particular hand, what is the other problem with having to fire 2 times unimproved?

[/ QUOTE ]

cant work this one out [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Watkins]

[ QUOTE ]
it helps if you learn that sometimes it's ok not to cbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Xhad, do you mean there are some flops you shouldn't c-bet or that you shouldn't c-bet against some opponents - or both?

In the example given I think the problem with a bet is that the board is semi co-ordinated and flush draws, straight draws etc. are likely to call or even raise. If we do get check/raised we're probably behind to a Q, we could be ahead against a draw (or air) but we have no way of knowing.

All that said no-one has shown any strength, we have MPTK and 3-5 outs if check/raised. I would bet this flop and if check/raised fold the turn UI. If I lost the other villain on the flop I would be tempted to fire again on the turn (for a free showdown or to take it down there and then).

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it helps if you learn that sometimes it's ok not to cbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Xhad, do you mean there are some flops you shouldn't c-bet or that you shouldn't c-bet against some opponents - or both?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both.

[ QUOTE ]


In the example given I think the problem with a bet is that the board is semi co-ordinated and flush draws, straight draws etc. are likely to call or even raise. If we do get check/raised we're probably behind to a Q, we could be ahead against a draw (or air) but we have no way of knowing.

All that said no-one has shown any strength, we have MPTK and 3-5 outs if check/raised. I would bet this flop and if check/raised fold the turn UI. If I lost the other villain on the flop I would be tempted to fire again on the turn (for a free showdown or to take it down there and then).

[/ QUOTE ]

In the example hero is the SB and can't be c/rd, also on the flop hero is raised, mptk is good here almost never without better reads than we have.

[Watkins]

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Misread this, glad I wasn't in the hand at the time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I would still fire at this flop but after the raise I'm folding the turn UI. This is a horrible board for us though.

[Shillx]

AAAAAAAAARGH!

Is this hand really deserving of this? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[VirgilStarkwell]

grunch
I am just getting used to shorthanded blind vs blind type hands myself. But reads are REALLY important. I'd be really unhappy about playing second pair oop against an unknown.

I'd just limp preflop. I'm not sure but I don't think the raise is for value 3-handed. Actually I am pretty sure it's not. Plus whenever utg limps you want to be suspicious-- One of those places where reads are important. If a tag limps utg he may have a small pair, putting him ahead already. Or maybe he's one of those guys who limp-reraises AA utg.

If BB is lp, not inclined for free card raises, I'd call his flop raise, then check turn and fold. At that point all you beat is a T with weaker kicker. Unlikely lp would raise with that.

If BB is tag or reasonably sane lag I'd 3-bet flop. Or another line could be: check raise the flop. If it checks round then you know your second pair is good and bet out if turn card is safe. If someone bets, raise. If they just call, you can lead the turn. Or just check and maybe you'll get a free card. If someone reraises, call and c/f turn.

Basically, go into the turn with some idea of where your hand stands. BB could be raising for a lot of reasons. Find out if he will 3-bet or cap. The extra SBs are worth it if you can save yourself the BBs down the line.

Don't get into these situations with unpredictable players. Keep nice predictable passive players on your left so when you steal blinds or play oop you can trust their bets.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Xhad, do you mean there are some flops you shouldn't c-bet or that you shouldn't c-bet against some opponents - or both?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both. Although I'm almost never checking when I flop a pair, or HU. 3 handed on a J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] board I think it's a check.